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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4707420" data-attributes="member: 82732">Both kind of weak.  N+2 is the minimum value for analyzing anything important with regard to combat in 4e.  No, they really don't.  Even with crappy tactics and a different build nothing would have happened of significance(maybe a few more surges cost).  How did you escape the zone effect of the floor?  How many characters in your party? As were the encounters as anecdotal proof.  The encounters were clearly not a challenge to the party and thus they neither test nor prove anything.  I bet a lot of people here can get 100% on 8th grade math tests.  repeatedly getting 100% on 8th grade math tests is not significant evidence that you're capable of getting an 800 on the math SAT.This seems like a much more challenging encounter.  What EL was it? how many pc's in your party?  In a small group, being put down can definitely lead to death before another pc can help you.  A very brutal encounter.  The minor attack action seems massively broken when coupled with the free attack and bonus damage.  Is there a point here?  I think I can make a lot better argument that NDS are broken than anyone can about ghouls.  The party absolutely needs to put one down on round one or they're in huge trouble.  You're as good as TPK'd if you have no leader here as well just from the massive amount of damage these creatures put out.  Thunderwave to push them back before other players have to take the automatic damage and warlord powers that let other pc's shift are all I can think of to really save pc's here.  I would highly recommend the pc's all burn their actions points and unload on these critters right away.not a member of DDI so I don't know much about the warden.  I've been in two parties with warlords, and 5 with clerics including playing a cleric.  I grew to like warlords over time but I think they under perform compared to clerics in most situations.  the definitely have their strengths but they certainly don't compare at all to cleric with regard to saves and radiant damage is a very nice plus.I do indeed believe healing is about double the value of damage. Especially targeted healing like healing/inspiring word.  when both groups are applying focus fire (arguably one of the most important tactics in 4e) it is healing that keeps all the pc's up while the monsters start to drop and thereby lose offensive power.  hardly.  the defender is frequently the person most in need of healing.  It also depends on the other party members and what defenses they have.  In my experience a party with no defenders has both problems and advantages.  The squishies are going to get dinged up more but this can spread the surge loss more evenly in the party.Totally misrepresenting my position.  You don't have to have any class.  My argument isn't that you can't have a party with no leader, my argument is if you have a party with no leader you will have a much higher probability of losing pc's or getting TPK'd.  I play in a particularly dangerous campaign, I can guarantee you that we would not survive without a healer.  I would argue that the leader sort of needs to be a cleric because of small party size (4) and debilitating effects (stun) so we need the ready access to bonus saves. One debilitated character in a 4 pc party is 25% of offensive capability.  One stun in a party of 6 is 16.7%.  This is a major difference.you keep using an example without really defining what happened.  How big is the party? did anyone stay in the zone?  Does your dm use focus fire?  the minion encounter is a pretty poor example no matter how you slice it.  warlock with armor, dragon born, wizard... that's a massive amount of minion removal.  the huntmaster needs allies to be effective.   both really weak examples.  a solo and a zone and a minion heavy encounter vs a party almost optimized for minion removal. what are the pc's in your party?Minions are almost zero threat (10 dmg is good though) when you consider armor of ag, dragon born and a wizard.  How many minions even survived the first round?How many people entered the zone in the solo encounter?  wait... you're telling me it's all about tactics yet you deploy armor on the solo and not on the minions?  That's horrible tactics.  Horrendous.  5th level pc's have 35 to 55 hp.  If you let 12 minions get off multiple ten damage attacks how is it that no one got bloodied?  Something simply doesn't add up with your example.  12 minions doing 10 damage each.  The crocotta has a close burst 3 that does 17 average damage and hits an avg 5th level pc on a 3 or a 4.  It's also got a minor that it can use and recharge that grants CA in blast 3 to set up the burst (49 squares of pain that hits on a 2 or a 4 depending on CA).  Even the crocs normal attack is a +14 vs AC and does about 11 or 15 avg depending on whether it shifted.  94Hp's means it won't be dead quick.  It's also got resist 5 variable which increases survival duration.  Everything in this battle hits at least 50% of the time.  The croc hits about 80% and the party has 200 hit points.  The minions not only are going to get at least 18-25 attacks given your previous statements they increase the damage from the huntmaster (even before we factor his template and AoE attack).This means the minions eat up half your hit points even with me being generous and taking favorable assumptions for you, like not upping the minions hits based upon an near guarantee of flanking.  The crocotta can't help but do 50 dmg.  I would say it's got a great chance to do 100 supported by the minions and huntmaster.  The huntmaster has ranged 20 and avg dmg of 15 on anything near the minions.  Clearly your DM is not practicing any kind of focus fire because even 5 minions and the huntmaster on one character would mean avg dmg of about 35, way into bloodied and definitely in need of healing.  The gnolls have superior numbers, superior mobility, superior offense, pretty solid defense, and a very solid damage delivery system in the crocotta. When you "spread out" as you suggested that means the marauders and dogs can mall the squishy warlock or shaman.    Tell you what, buy a copy of "fantasy grounds 2" and I'll dm this encounter for you.  If you play it as you suggest (no armor, no wizard), I think I'll possibly tpk you. With out any minion hosing tricks you're going to pay a steep price.  Lets see if you don't need some healing.  Totally agree.  But you said it had massive hit points.  Can't have died that quick.  How many guys in the zone during those 3 rounds?</blockquote>

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