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<blockquote data-quote="index" data-source="post: 1648281" data-attributes="member: 21195"><p>> Gez wrote :</p><p></p><p>> Should I pimp again my own version of the Aristocrat?</p><p>> http://gez117.free.fr/dnd/aristocrat.html</p><p></p><p>> Yes, I figured I should. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious :]" data-shortname=":]" /></p><p></p><p>> If they step on any toes, it's on the Bard's. Which I figured is OK,</p><p>> since for roleplay reason, I don't think a noble is going to want to</p><p>> become a tavern singer.</p><p></p><p>Ah, now I remember what bothers me about the Aristocrat and</p><p>Barbarian classes : conflating social standing with</p><p>abilities. This straight-jackets classes into certain</p><p>social roles, makes the game less flexible.</p><p></p><p>As far as I'm concerned, Bard (or the Marshal from the</p><p>Miniatures Handbook, available free at</p><p>http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b ) make</p><p>good leader types, and should be good choices for an upper</p><p>class character. (Though obviously the Marshal is focused</p><p>on battlefield effectiveness. That's what multi-classing is</p><p>for.)</p><p></p><p>Gez, I like that your version of the Aristocrat has</p><p>Leadership score bonuses. It's shocking how many 'noble'</p><p>characters don't have Leadership. What, NONE of these</p><p>example characters have a hundred or so LOYAL followers?</p><p></p><p>The way you have abilities at high level dependent on both</p><p>class level and Diplomacy skill ranks discourages</p><p>multi-classing. Though that seems to be WotC's intent, I</p><p>believe discouraging multi-classing is a bad thing. Having</p><p>a list of special abilities they can choose from at high</p><p>level, each with a minimum number of Diplomacy ranks, would</p><p>be better IMO. If you must have level restrictions, and you</p><p>don't want to inflate the Diplomacy rank restrictions, use</p><p>character level (instead of class level) restrictions,</p><p>please.</p><p></p><p>> My reasonning was that what made someone a leader is not his capacity</p><p>> to fight, sling spells, or pick lock; it's not even his capacity to do</p><p>> wise rulings (there's a number of real-life examples, past and</p><p>> present). It's his capacity to lead. To motivate his troops, to make</p><p>> people want to follow him.</p><p></p><p>[mode=cynical]What makes a person a leader is rich</p><p>parents.[/mode] Seriously, the mark of an EFFECTIVE leader</p><p>is the ability to wisely choose subordinates and keep them</p><p>working together. I think your bonuses to Leadership score</p><p>(and, secondarily, dependence on Diplomacy skill) are a good</p><p>start in that direction. Having Sense Motive as a class</p><p>skill is good for figuring out who BELIEVES they are</p><p>trustworthy. But how (within the D&D rules) do you tell</p><p>whether or not someone actually is competent in their field,</p><p>other than also being competent in that field?</p><p></p><p>Don't worry about it too much. Historically, most leaders</p><p>have been the biggest bullies, not those actually most</p><p>competent at leading.</p><p></p><p>--index</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="index, post: 1648281, member: 21195"] > Gez wrote : > Should I pimp again my own version of the Aristocrat? > http://gez117.free.fr/dnd/aristocrat.html > Yes, I figured I should. :] > If they step on any toes, it's on the Bard's. Which I figured is OK, > since for roleplay reason, I don't think a noble is going to want to > become a tavern singer. Ah, now I remember what bothers me about the Aristocrat and Barbarian classes : conflating social standing with abilities. This straight-jackets classes into certain social roles, makes the game less flexible. As far as I'm concerned, Bard (or the Marshal from the Miniatures Handbook, available free at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b ) make good leader types, and should be good choices for an upper class character. (Though obviously the Marshal is focused on battlefield effectiveness. That's what multi-classing is for.) Gez, I like that your version of the Aristocrat has Leadership score bonuses. It's shocking how many 'noble' characters don't have Leadership. What, NONE of these example characters have a hundred or so LOYAL followers? The way you have abilities at high level dependent on both class level and Diplomacy skill ranks discourages multi-classing. Though that seems to be WotC's intent, I believe discouraging multi-classing is a bad thing. Having a list of special abilities they can choose from at high level, each with a minimum number of Diplomacy ranks, would be better IMO. If you must have level restrictions, and you don't want to inflate the Diplomacy rank restrictions, use character level (instead of class level) restrictions, please. > My reasonning was that what made someone a leader is not his capacity > to fight, sling spells, or pick lock; it's not even his capacity to do > wise rulings (there's a number of real-life examples, past and > present). It's his capacity to lead. To motivate his troops, to make > people want to follow him. [mode=cynical]What makes a person a leader is rich parents.[/mode] Seriously, the mark of an EFFECTIVE leader is the ability to wisely choose subordinates and keep them working together. I think your bonuses to Leadership score (and, secondarily, dependence on Diplomacy skill) are a good start in that direction. Having Sense Motive as a class skill is good for figuring out who BELIEVES they are trustworthy. But how (within the D&D rules) do you tell whether or not someone actually is competent in their field, other than also being competent in that field? Don't worry about it too much. Historically, most leaders have been the biggest bullies, not those actually most competent at leading. --index [/QUOTE]
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