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PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6357348" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]</p><p></p><p>Maybe you could share the specifics of your players' most recent case of "talk smack to the villain"-itis? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>My experience is that <strong>any</strong> NPC must earn the PCs' respect (and hence the players' respect) in game, usually over time. Saying "he's the king of the realm" means bupkis to the average player. You've got to demonstrate in detail why he is someone worthy of respect, deference, fear, caution, or whatever. And if you think about how notorious it is for parties to die when outgunned because they refused to run away...well, it sort of makes sense that their baseline would be arrogant and belittling, wouldn't it? </p><p></p><p>This brings to mind Prince John from my old 4e campaign...</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Prince John]Prince John (his name was actually Ardanus, but Prince John conveys his archetype well) was known as a nasty prejudice elitist jockeying for the throne at the start of the campaign. I asked everyone to give their PCs a reason they opposed the Prince's policies...most did, a few didn't (cause "I cleave with my axe" IS roleplaying!! RawrZ!).</p><p></p><p>The PCs begin investigating a murder of an emissary of Prince John, resorting to capturing and torturing a captain for information, discovering Prince John's bastard son is hiding in the area and theyve been sent to bring him in, alive or dead. Before they can dispatch the captain, however, he gets away. They find Prince John's bastard son and learn how the boy's mother, a servant in the Prince's house, was supposed to be executed and the bastard locked in a tower. And they were like, "Whoah, it takes a real bastard to make a bastard son!"</p><p></p><p>When they're traveling thru a town rampant with Demi-humans being oppressed, overtaxation by a corrupt Magistrate put into power by Prince John, and discover a plot to sell "witching children" with the gift for magic to evil wizard slavers as part of Prince John's plan to strengthen the kingdom's borders thru an alliance with the kingdom of the evil wizards. And they said, "Dang, this Prince John is a son of a flumph!"</p><p></p><p>Later they meet the bastard son's mother in a borderlands convent trying to fight a plague caused by war and broker peace with Prince Charming's help (Prince John's good brother). The PCs discover that the upcoming peace treaty is a farce and Prince John has manipulated extremists on both sides to assassinate his brother and his former lover. No surprise, the PCs put a stop to it, but in the process a dracolich is unleashed from its prison by one of Prince John's men. One player says "You know we are only 4th level right?" The other players are starting to hate on Prince John now.</p><p></p><p>The gnomish artificer PC's uncle is imprisoned by Prince John in the Tower of London (fantasy equivalent), and the PCs decide to free him because theyre the good guys and he has critical intel. They have a lot of fun breaking into the tower dungeons, but they get grisly details of the sorts of tortures that await dissidents against the Prince. The PC's uncle is missing several teeth and fingernails, and is terrified whenever someone mentions tacks, screws, or nails from then on. The players tell me, "Prince John has got to go down. Yes, definitely we will kill him when we see him next."</p><p></p><p>They escort the bastard son to the King's castle. The king is dying of illness, and Prince John is close to sezing power but must wait for his dear old dad to die first. Welcomed as minor heroes for their recent deeds, the PCs sit at the royal feast table and who is sitting across from them? Prince John. the bard player is incredulous, "You mean he is right there? Across the table from us?" Some very under the table smack talking does occur, drenched in civilties, the PCs trying to figure out Prince John's agenda and he theirs. It is very tense. Then the PCs discover that there is a shape shifting monster haunting the land, and it's death toll is rising; the king is prepared to pay them from the royal coffers if they rid the land of the monster. prince John readily agrees with his father. "Wait a minute, we're not working for Prince John, are we?" Ask the players.</p><p></p><p>Turns out the monster was Princess Cursed (not her real name), Prince John's dear sister, and that Prince John's agent had been exacerbating the curse and manipulating Princess Cursed into killing off his politicl enemies. The players are like, "His own sister? This guy is eeevil!" Thankfully they manage to put the curse into stasis though they nearly kill Princess Cursed in the process. Of course, there is no evidence tying any of this back to Prince John.</p><p></p><p>The invoker PC (who is a low-ranking noble), sits in on a Crown Council convened by Prince John while his father is on his deathbed, putting forward his bid for the throne and revealing all his supporters and pledge to spake the kingdom strong again. The player is really nervous because he can't really voice opposition without getting targeted for assassination, so he makes token resistance. End result: the PCs need to to get a magic crown lost in the mountains before the Prince does, since it is the item the Prince needs to confirm his legitimacy over his brother Prince Charming. The players "have a bad feeling about this."</p><p></p><p>In the mountains, the PCs find slave labor camps under the heel of Prince John's men. They plan to free the slaves when they get back. The PCs sneak inside the flooded dungeon where the crown lies, only to be trapped inside by the Prince's forces with lots of undead, traps, and rising water. They hear several slaves get killed foil an attempt to weaken the PCs' resolve and flush them out because <em>its what Prince John would do!</em> Then the Prince's forces ambush them at the crown, destroy the PCs' escape route, and a vicious fight ensues which the PCs barely survive and most are poisoned. "Damn Prince John!" Has become their battle cry at this point.</p><p></p><p>Back in town they have to gather noble allies during a tournament. Everything goes to hell. The bard PCs secret contact with the Queen is discovered and an ambush is set up during their one-on-one which he narrowly evades. Bugbear assassins hit the PCs while they sleep. An important noble whose support they were courting is "accidentally" killed in the tournament. And then Prince John invites them to his tent to watch the jousting event with him, realizing that he has his bastard son with him now and is grooming the boy to be Prince John #2. While a PC jousts, he reveals that he has taken his old lover captive and is looking forward to deflowering her virtue now that she is a nun. And, oh by the way, my crossbowman sniper is going to kill your friend there if he starts to win the joust. After much scrambling, the PCs save their paladin by a hair. "How are we going to beat this Prince?" Bemoans the party rogue.</p><p></p><p>Finally the king expires and Prince John claims the throne. Thankfully, the PCs got the crown before him, so he only has half the support of the kingdom's nobles he would otherwise have. It's civil war! And as much as the PCs were trying to avoid it, at least now they can stab Prince John in the face and call him silly names, right? Well, first they've got to lead a daring strike on his fortified keep on an island in the middle of a lake. "Wait a minute," says the swordmage PC, " you mean my family's old keep? Damn you, Prin John!" And it is also revealed he is controlling the dracolich, which the PCs must face after wading thru an entire contingent of soldiers led by the very captian they'd tortured at the beginning of the campaign. He explains how he was having second thoughts about Prince John, but that the brutality of his treatment at their hands proved that there were no good guys in this fight. Full of remorse, the PCs realize that Prince John has been recruiting from those who the PCs have hurt the most in their adventures. They are about to do a sword point conversion of the captain when they see the dracolich maul Prince Charming on the battlefield. What do they do?</p><p></p><p>With their covert plan shot to hell, the PCs begin a desperate melee to save the Prince, leaving the captain to slink away. Prince John is able to speak thru the creature's voice, issuing demands for their surrender, including making the paladin his pissboy and the rogue his concubine. For a moment the PCs wonder if they can negotiate a surrender that doesn't involve having to lay siege to the Prince's keep. "Wait, we're not seriously considering letting him get away with this, are we?" The bard acts as the party's conscience, bolstering their flagging courage. They are already hurting. After fighting the dracolich and slaying it, they are really hurting. And they've got an entire keep to invade next? At least they can wait for their reinforcements which they've gathered over the course of the campaign...right?</p><p></p><p>Wrong. Prince John is conducting a ritual, and the invoker realizes it is to link his life to his bastard son, much like a lich's phylactery only for a living being, meaning if Prince John were to die so would his son...or perhaps he'd be able to posses his son, it wasn't clear. Moreover the ritual would be completed in an hour. Unable to get a break, the PCs scrap together what support they can muster immediately, and push out across a boat to the keep. They are down many of their abilities and healing resources, and the mood is a bit grim. An NPC asks, "What hope do we really have? It's just us few dozen and he has an army of mercenaries, black knights, and monsters." The players know this all too well. Their concern, however, is who the ritual caster is...the Prince? Or one of the swordmage PC's family he corrupted?</p><p></p><p>There is a bit of puzzle solving reaching the keep, some tragic roleplaying when the swordmage PC realizes what Prince John did to her family, and then bloodshed. Lots and lots of bloodshed. At last ehy face the Prince John who has hounded their every step throughout the campaign. They hate his guts, he hates their guts, the bard and him exchange some real choice words. The PCs think they can use this as their sepia traction to get the best on his elite forces. Little do they realize that Prince John is doing exactly the same. Summoned demons surprise them, just as they spring their ambush! "Wait, did the villain just out-player us?" Laughed the invoker's player in look of shock.</p><p></p><p>Their victory was never ensured. It took every bit of cunning, every resource they had, and every lucky roll. When they defeated Prince John it was not because it was what the story demanded or because the DM "let them win", it was because they earned their victory over a tenacious and extremely intelligent enemy who they'd been waiting an entire year-long campaign to mouth off to.</p><p></p><p>Naturally, the attack that brought Prince John down was the bard's <em>Vicious Mockery.</em> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6357348, member: 20323"] [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] Maybe you could share the specifics of your players' most recent case of "talk smack to the villain"-itis? :) My experience is that [b]any[/b] NPC must earn the PCs' respect (and hence the players' respect) in game, usually over time. Saying "he's the king of the realm" means bupkis to the average player. You've got to demonstrate in detail why he is someone worthy of respect, deference, fear, caution, or whatever. And if you think about how notorious it is for parties to die when outgunned because they refused to run away...well, it sort of makes sense that their baseline would be arrogant and belittling, wouldn't it? This brings to mind Prince John from my old 4e campaign... [sblock=Prince John]Prince John (his name was actually Ardanus, but Prince John conveys his archetype well) was known as a nasty prejudice elitist jockeying for the throne at the start of the campaign. I asked everyone to give their PCs a reason they opposed the Prince's policies...most did, a few didn't (cause "I cleave with my axe" IS roleplaying!! RawrZ!). The PCs begin investigating a murder of an emissary of Prince John, resorting to capturing and torturing a captain for information, discovering Prince John's bastard son is hiding in the area and theyve been sent to bring him in, alive or dead. Before they can dispatch the captain, however, he gets away. They find Prince John's bastard son and learn how the boy's mother, a servant in the Prince's house, was supposed to be executed and the bastard locked in a tower. And they were like, "Whoah, it takes a real bastard to make a bastard son!" When they're traveling thru a town rampant with Demi-humans being oppressed, overtaxation by a corrupt Magistrate put into power by Prince John, and discover a plot to sell "witching children" with the gift for magic to evil wizard slavers as part of Prince John's plan to strengthen the kingdom's borders thru an alliance with the kingdom of the evil wizards. And they said, "Dang, this Prince John is a son of a flumph!" Later they meet the bastard son's mother in a borderlands convent trying to fight a plague caused by war and broker peace with Prince Charming's help (Prince John's good brother). The PCs discover that the upcoming peace treaty is a farce and Prince John has manipulated extremists on both sides to assassinate his brother and his former lover. No surprise, the PCs put a stop to it, but in the process a dracolich is unleashed from its prison by one of Prince John's men. One player says "You know we are only 4th level right?" The other players are starting to hate on Prince John now. The gnomish artificer PC's uncle is imprisoned by Prince John in the Tower of London (fantasy equivalent), and the PCs decide to free him because theyre the good guys and he has critical intel. They have a lot of fun breaking into the tower dungeons, but they get grisly details of the sorts of tortures that await dissidents against the Prince. The PC's uncle is missing several teeth and fingernails, and is terrified whenever someone mentions tacks, screws, or nails from then on. The players tell me, "Prince John has got to go down. Yes, definitely we will kill him when we see him next." They escort the bastard son to the King's castle. The king is dying of illness, and Prince John is close to sezing power but must wait for his dear old dad to die first. Welcomed as minor heroes for their recent deeds, the PCs sit at the royal feast table and who is sitting across from them? Prince John. the bard player is incredulous, "You mean he is right there? Across the table from us?" Some very under the table smack talking does occur, drenched in civilties, the PCs trying to figure out Prince John's agenda and he theirs. It is very tense. Then the PCs discover that there is a shape shifting monster haunting the land, and it's death toll is rising; the king is prepared to pay them from the royal coffers if they rid the land of the monster. prince John readily agrees with his father. "Wait a minute, we're not working for Prince John, are we?" Ask the players. Turns out the monster was Princess Cursed (not her real name), Prince John's dear sister, and that Prince John's agent had been exacerbating the curse and manipulating Princess Cursed into killing off his politicl enemies. The players are like, "His own sister? This guy is eeevil!" Thankfully they manage to put the curse into stasis though they nearly kill Princess Cursed in the process. Of course, there is no evidence tying any of this back to Prince John. The invoker PC (who is a low-ranking noble), sits in on a Crown Council convened by Prince John while his father is on his deathbed, putting forward his bid for the throne and revealing all his supporters and pledge to spake the kingdom strong again. The player is really nervous because he can't really voice opposition without getting targeted for assassination, so he makes token resistance. End result: the PCs need to to get a magic crown lost in the mountains before the Prince does, since it is the item the Prince needs to confirm his legitimacy over his brother Prince Charming. The players "have a bad feeling about this." In the mountains, the PCs find slave labor camps under the heel of Prince John's men. They plan to free the slaves when they get back. The PCs sneak inside the flooded dungeon where the crown lies, only to be trapped inside by the Prince's forces with lots of undead, traps, and rising water. They hear several slaves get killed foil an attempt to weaken the PCs' resolve and flush them out because [i]its what Prince John would do![/i] Then the Prince's forces ambush them at the crown, destroy the PCs' escape route, and a vicious fight ensues which the PCs barely survive and most are poisoned. "Damn Prince John!" Has become their battle cry at this point. Back in town they have to gather noble allies during a tournament. Everything goes to hell. The bard PCs secret contact with the Queen is discovered and an ambush is set up during their one-on-one which he narrowly evades. Bugbear assassins hit the PCs while they sleep. An important noble whose support they were courting is "accidentally" killed in the tournament. And then Prince John invites them to his tent to watch the jousting event with him, realizing that he has his bastard son with him now and is grooming the boy to be Prince John #2. While a PC jousts, he reveals that he has taken his old lover captive and is looking forward to deflowering her virtue now that she is a nun. And, oh by the way, my crossbowman sniper is going to kill your friend there if he starts to win the joust. After much scrambling, the PCs save their paladin by a hair. "How are we going to beat this Prince?" Bemoans the party rogue. Finally the king expires and Prince John claims the throne. Thankfully, the PCs got the crown before him, so he only has half the support of the kingdom's nobles he would otherwise have. It's civil war! And as much as the PCs were trying to avoid it, at least now they can stab Prince John in the face and call him silly names, right? Well, first they've got to lead a daring strike on his fortified keep on an island in the middle of a lake. "Wait a minute," says the swordmage PC, " you mean my family's old keep? Damn you, Prin John!" And it is also revealed he is controlling the dracolich, which the PCs must face after wading thru an entire contingent of soldiers led by the very captian they'd tortured at the beginning of the campaign. He explains how he was having second thoughts about Prince John, but that the brutality of his treatment at their hands proved that there were no good guys in this fight. Full of remorse, the PCs realize that Prince John has been recruiting from those who the PCs have hurt the most in their adventures. They are about to do a sword point conversion of the captain when they see the dracolich maul Prince Charming on the battlefield. What do they do? With their covert plan shot to hell, the PCs begin a desperate melee to save the Prince, leaving the captain to slink away. Prince John is able to speak thru the creature's voice, issuing demands for their surrender, including making the paladin his pissboy and the rogue his concubine. For a moment the PCs wonder if they can negotiate a surrender that doesn't involve having to lay siege to the Prince's keep. "Wait, we're not seriously considering letting him get away with this, are we?" The bard acts as the party's conscience, bolstering their flagging courage. They are already hurting. After fighting the dracolich and slaying it, they are really hurting. And they've got an entire keep to invade next? At least they can wait for their reinforcements which they've gathered over the course of the campaign...right? Wrong. Prince John is conducting a ritual, and the invoker realizes it is to link his life to his bastard son, much like a lich's phylactery only for a living being, meaning if Prince John were to die so would his son...or perhaps he'd be able to posses his son, it wasn't clear. Moreover the ritual would be completed in an hour. Unable to get a break, the PCs scrap together what support they can muster immediately, and push out across a boat to the keep. They are down many of their abilities and healing resources, and the mood is a bit grim. An NPC asks, "What hope do we really have? It's just us few dozen and he has an army of mercenaries, black knights, and monsters." The players know this all too well. Their concern, however, is who the ritual caster is...the Prince? Or one of the swordmage PC's family he corrupted? There is a bit of puzzle solving reaching the keep, some tragic roleplaying when the swordmage PC realizes what Prince John did to her family, and then bloodshed. Lots and lots of bloodshed. At last ehy face the Prince John who has hounded their every step throughout the campaign. They hate his guts, he hates their guts, the bard and him exchange some real choice words. The PCs think they can use this as their sepia traction to get the best on his elite forces. Little do they realize that Prince John is doing exactly the same. Summoned demons surprise them, just as they spring their ambush! "Wait, did the villain just out-player us?" Laughed the invoker's player in look of shock. Their victory was never ensured. It took every bit of cunning, every resource they had, and every lucky roll. When they defeated Prince John it was not because it was what the story demanded or because the DM "let them win", it was because they earned their victory over a tenacious and extremely intelligent enemy who they'd been waiting an entire year-long campaign to mouth off to. Naturally, the attack that brought Prince John down was the bard's [i]Vicious Mockery.[/i] ;) [/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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