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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6088784" data-attributes="member: 42582">Does this player just enjoy the company, and the occasional dice roll? (In 4e DMG terms that would make him a "watcher".) Or is there some other element of the RPG experience that he enjoys?Back in the days when I was GMing at university and had a fairly open door for group membership, I got a player who seemed to have no interest in the mechanical side of the game, nor the story/thematic aspect of the game, nor really in the human company! He dropped out of the group after a short while, and his PC became an NPC/cohort until killed in an unhappy conflict with an ice troll. (The players, rolling for the NPC, were cheering for me as I rolled for the troll.)I think this can be a subtle matter.  [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] has some developed views about it, and may want to join in.For me, it is about where the surprise/whims come in. I think most people who are even thinking about scene-framing play want surprise as opposed to railroad/metaplot of the 90s Dead Gods or White Wolf style. But scene-framing play isn't surprise all the way down. Many of the basic elements that will make up the conflicts that will drive the game are established fairly overtly in play.To give easy examples from my own 4e game, two PCs worship the Raven Queen - so Orcus will be a nemesis. One is an invoker on a divinely-sanctioned mission to restore the Sceptre of Law (= the Rod of 7 Parts) - so chaos and the primordials will be nemeses. The same PC worships not only Erathis and Ioun but also Bane (more law vs chaos), The Raven Queen (so anti-Orcus/undead) but also in a limited way Vecna - so there is some tension there with the more straightforward Raven Queen devotees. Another PC is a dwarven fighter-cleric of Moradin who wields a dwarven thrower artefact. A bit like the Raven Queen worshippers, this PC is fairly straightforward (though on different dimensions) - a staunch supporter of law vs chaos, and "civilisation" vs goblins, giants etc. The fifth PC is a drow chaos sorcerer who is part of a secret society of Corellon worshippers dedicated to undoing the sundering of the elves. He hates Lolth and the Abyss, but revels in chaos and the fey. Bluff is his best skill. There is obvious tension here with the dwarf and the invoker, and I think everyone at the table recognises that epic tier - when gods and primordials become more proximate - is going to increase rather than reduce that tension.Given those PC set ups, no one is surprised when Orcus, Lolth, demons, devils, Kas etc turn up as antagonists and pivotal NPCs. The player flags are clear; the points of pressure are clear to me as GM. How it unfolds will (hopefully) be surprising and entertaining to all of us at the table. But the basic framework of conflict has been estasblished.If someone really wants to play a game in which they don't want to send any signals, or make any thematic or value choices as a player, and want it all to be delivered by the GM, then I don't think scene-framing play of the sort we were discussing in the other thread is for them. It seems to me that they want to follow the GM's story, perhaps providing a bit of characterisation of their PC as they go along. I would think a well-written adventure path for a system which doesn't give players too many situational-control mechanics (eg in D&D terms, teleports and the like) would suit a group of such players well.But this is something on which I'm keen to hear what others think.</blockquote>

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