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Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted
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<blockquote data-quote="Kurtomatic" data-source="post: 6091121" data-attributes="member: 85486"><p>So glad to see this topic continue to survive. /congrats </p><p></p><p>A few questions I've been saving...</p><p></p><p>Regarding scene-framing and protaganism: there's an old adventure design hack where some predetermined encounter (or scene) occurs because the PCs cross some (usually narrative) state threshold, and the DM springs the scene in a way that might be variously be described as It Just So Happens, By Some Coincidence, or Look Who Got Here First. We've been jacking around in the dungeon privy for the last 5 hours dissecting otyughs for loot, but as soon as we set foot in the lizard shrine, Stuff Happens. In a video game, this might be called a 'scripted event'. Paizo's APs, for example, make generous use of scripted events. They can be especially useful as icebreakers; Paizo's AP formula shamelessly leverages opening scripted events to inject the PCs directly into the main storyline (<a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/carrionCrown" target="_blank">Carrion Crown's</a> opening is particularly brilliant). However, most of the time these things are obvious, often arbitrary, story constructs foisted on the party because they crossed an invisible line somewhere (or said the magic word or whatever). I have found that players are pretty accepting of these 'offers you can't refuse' (see what I did there), mostly due to the social contract at the table. In fact, my experience as a player is by the time you've slogged your way into the 5th book of an AP, you're quite happy to see these triggers take over, because that means you are Finally Getting Somewhere.</p><p></p><p>Now, I recognize that this isn't scene-framing, but scripted events do express an element of protaganism; that's what they're there for, a kind of primitive proto-scene framing device to bring the PCs into the action. I think this also meets the description of pressure, right? The problem is, in addition to being procedural pre-scripted story elements without much player input, they're usually just a bit too obvious. They stick out like a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=876X30YznqE" target="_blank">mic boom caught in the frame</a>. Is there a trap you can find yourself in with scene-framing, where strong protaganism has led you to one coincidence too many? Is there a risk of being a bit too Dramatically Correct? No-myth play in particular seems like it would be pretty unrelenting in this regard.</p><p></p><p>One outcome of procedural play is the occasional <em>non sequitur</em> that reminds players there are Other Things going on besides their story. Which is explicitly anti-protagonist, of course, but when fans of procedural play refer to immersion, I think this is one of the of outcomes they're looking for, whether it was actually randomly generated or not. If you're scene-framing from player-offered button pressing all the time, is there a risk of predictability that needs to be managed? Can (or how would) you integrate an externally-generated scene into an A<B framing style game to provide pressure without telegraphing the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ" target="_blank"><em>script authoritah</em></a>.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.., I have some other topics I'll save for a bit, but while this is fresh, I have another question...</p><p></p><p>My understanding is AB is dreadfully difficult to source, isn't available in PDF (not even the scurvy scallywags seem to have this one), and only partially refactored into the Gold edition. Do you (or anyone else) know if the GM advice in AB is included in Gold, or if there is valuable GM guidance unique to AB that can't be found currently in print?</p><p></p><p>Mercy Buckets!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kurtomatic, post: 6091121, member: 85486"] So glad to see this topic continue to survive. /congrats A few questions I've been saving... Regarding scene-framing and protaganism: there's an old adventure design hack where some predetermined encounter (or scene) occurs because the PCs cross some (usually narrative) state threshold, and the DM springs the scene in a way that might be variously be described as It Just So Happens, By Some Coincidence, or Look Who Got Here First. We've been jacking around in the dungeon privy for the last 5 hours dissecting otyughs for loot, but as soon as we set foot in the lizard shrine, Stuff Happens. In a video game, this might be called a 'scripted event'. Paizo's APs, for example, make generous use of scripted events. They can be especially useful as icebreakers; Paizo's AP formula shamelessly leverages opening scripted events to inject the PCs directly into the main storyline ([URL="http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/carrionCrown"]Carrion Crown's[/URL] opening is particularly brilliant). However, most of the time these things are obvious, often arbitrary, story constructs foisted on the party because they crossed an invisible line somewhere (or said the magic word or whatever). I have found that players are pretty accepting of these 'offers you can't refuse' (see what I did there), mostly due to the social contract at the table. In fact, my experience as a player is by the time you've slogged your way into the 5th book of an AP, you're quite happy to see these triggers take over, because that means you are Finally Getting Somewhere. Now, I recognize that this isn't scene-framing, but scripted events do express an element of protaganism; that's what they're there for, a kind of primitive proto-scene framing device to bring the PCs into the action. I think this also meets the description of pressure, right? The problem is, in addition to being procedural pre-scripted story elements without much player input, they're usually just a bit too obvious. They stick out like a [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=876X30YznqE"]mic boom caught in the frame[/URL]. Is there a trap you can find yourself in with scene-framing, where strong protaganism has led you to one coincidence too many? Is there a risk of being a bit too Dramatically Correct? No-myth play in particular seems like it would be pretty unrelenting in this regard. One outcome of procedural play is the occasional [I]non sequitur[/I] that reminds players there are Other Things going on besides their story. Which is explicitly anti-protagonist, of course, but when fans of procedural play refer to immersion, I think this is one of the of outcomes they're looking for, whether it was actually randomly generated or not. If you're scene-framing from player-offered button pressing all the time, is there a risk of predictability that needs to be managed? Can (or how would) you integrate an externally-generated scene into an A<B framing style game to provide pressure without telegraphing the [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ"][I]script authoritah[/I][/URL]. Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.., I have some other topics I'll save for a bit, but while this is fresh, I have another question... My understanding is AB is dreadfully difficult to source, isn't available in PDF (not even the scurvy scallywags seem to have this one), and only partially refactored into the Gold edition. Do you (or anyone else) know if the GM advice in AB is included in Gold, or if there is valuable GM guidance unique to AB that can't be found currently in print? Mercy Buckets! [/QUOTE]
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