Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6091271" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Game designers and some players were definitely aware of some of the possibilities a good bit earlier. </p><p></p><p>1st of all I would say the sandbox wasn't a RESPONSE to anything. The sandbox was the Ur State, where D&D started. I mean it might have in its most prototypical form have been just "here's the dungeon, go any direction you want" but the point was you DID always go whatever way you wanted. The DM might trick you into going a certain way or put out the bait, but no GOOD DM forced anyone to do anything. Obviously simplistic railroad was an easy outgrowth, the DM had only a certain adventure to run, so choo choo you ended up there. Even back in the earliest days that wasn't really considered tolerable DMing.</p><p></p><p>In any case IIRC Top Secret SI had some sort of meta-game stuff. Toon was releasd in 1984 by SJG and very definitely was almost ABOUT the meta-game/breaking the 4th wall, etc. Admittedly though, MOST early 80's designers were focused laser-like on better sim. I think the thought was that somehow if you could make an RPG that was a perfected enough simulation of the genre then somehow it would be qualitatively better, thus such monstrosities as Twilight 2000 which simulated every detail of your character's gun and which bullet he was using and exactly where to the inch you got shot, etc. I'd say by the mid-80's that misapprehension had been thoroughly popped. </p><p></p><p>Interestingly I do recall people using meta-game mechanics as house rules, even in the 70's. There was a Boot Hill campaign where after we'd played through a number of pointless rounds of bar fight, guns, everyone bleeds dead, we invented a plot point. Your character could invoke it to do most anything, but informally you had to use it 'fairly' to make your character's story better. You were actually expected to even use it against your character if it made his story more cool (characters were pretty disposable in that game anyway). One of the GMs got a bit carried away with it and we never quite carried that on as a general thing into other games, but the germ of the idea was definitely floating around.</p><p></p><p>It certainly is true enough IMHO that the whole thing didn't solidify and become generally understood until WW came along, and a few other similar things. I guess every idea has to percolate for a while before it ripens (ah the mixed metaphors).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6091271, member: 82106"] Game designers and some players were definitely aware of some of the possibilities a good bit earlier. 1st of all I would say the sandbox wasn't a RESPONSE to anything. The sandbox was the Ur State, where D&D started. I mean it might have in its most prototypical form have been just "here's the dungeon, go any direction you want" but the point was you DID always go whatever way you wanted. The DM might trick you into going a certain way or put out the bait, but no GOOD DM forced anyone to do anything. Obviously simplistic railroad was an easy outgrowth, the DM had only a certain adventure to run, so choo choo you ended up there. Even back in the earliest days that wasn't really considered tolerable DMing. In any case IIRC Top Secret SI had some sort of meta-game stuff. Toon was releasd in 1984 by SJG and very definitely was almost ABOUT the meta-game/breaking the 4th wall, etc. Admittedly though, MOST early 80's designers were focused laser-like on better sim. I think the thought was that somehow if you could make an RPG that was a perfected enough simulation of the genre then somehow it would be qualitatively better, thus such monstrosities as Twilight 2000 which simulated every detail of your character's gun and which bullet he was using and exactly where to the inch you got shot, etc. I'd say by the mid-80's that misapprehension had been thoroughly popped. Interestingly I do recall people using meta-game mechanics as house rules, even in the 70's. There was a Boot Hill campaign where after we'd played through a number of pointless rounds of bar fight, guns, everyone bleeds dead, we invented a plot point. Your character could invoke it to do most anything, but informally you had to use it 'fairly' to make your character's story better. You were actually expected to even use it against your character if it made his story more cool (characters were pretty disposable in that game anyway). One of the GMs got a bit carried away with it and we never quite carried that on as a general thing into other games, but the germ of the idea was definitely floating around. It certainly is true enough IMHO that the whole thing didn't solidify and become generally understood until WW came along, and a few other similar things. I guess every idea has to percolate for a while before it ripens (ah the mixed metaphors). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted
Top