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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 506010" data-attributes="member: 4937">In 1st edition, the general consensus seemed to be that the very best of the game was from about 5th level to about 9th level.&nbsp; Above 9th level, the DM had to go through increasing contorsions to find something to challenge the party.&nbsp; There were some nice things about having a character who was counted among the great and mighty, but by and large such characters were retired to the back ground and only retrieved when sufficiently epic events required thier presence.With the increased challenge of monsters, and the more rapid advancement of characters, that sweet spot seems to have shifted upward to between 7th and 13th (granted, I haven't played a 13th level 3rd edition character).&nbsp;&nbsp; But still, there are the same sorts of breakdowns that seem to be begin in 3rd edition, only this time you are a little bit closer to 20 before they start happening.&nbsp; I can't imagine wanting to begin a long term campaign at or above 7th.&nbsp; I have however noted a whole lot of younger players who have never played anything lower.&nbsp;&nbsp; To be frank, they have absolutely pathetic dungeon crawling skills, in part because they have always had a ready spell or magic item as the solution to most any problem they encounter.By 7th level, even in 3rd edition, my characters have started seeming just a little too proficient - not that things with sufficient CR 'overage' don't challenge them - but that they seldom are stretched beyond thier class abilities to find a solution to a problem.&nbsp;&nbsp; I reject the notion that 1st level characters aren't heroic.&nbsp; To my mind, the most heroic period is that point in the heroes clear when he is faced by the most overwhelming odd and must succeed on his own merits despite this.&nbsp;&nbsp; The point that I find this true occurs down in the mid to low levels.&nbsp;&nbsp; As a DM, the time I enjoy most is when I can start throwing the bigger foes at them, but the average foes are still troublesome.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can send orcs after 6th level characters, but it gets pretty pointless to send them after 10th level characters unless I stack the odds pretty heavily in some fashion.&nbsp;&nbsp; All the sudden, my world, hereto previously inhabited with orcs and goblins, has to contain leveled ogres and outsiders (and so on and so forth).&nbsp; It just doesn't feel right.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 506010, member: 4937"] In 1st edition, the general consensus seemed to be that the very best of the game was from about 5th level to about 9th level. Above 9th level, the DM had to go through increasing contorsions to find something to challenge the party. There were some nice things about having a character who was counted among the great and mighty, but by and large such characters were retired to the back ground and only retrieved when sufficiently epic events required thier presence. With the increased challenge of monsters, and the more rapid advancement of characters, that sweet spot seems to have shifted upward to between 7th and 13th (granted, I haven't played a 13th level 3rd edition character). But still, there are the same sorts of breakdowns that seem to be begin in 3rd edition, only this time you are a little bit closer to 20 before they start happening. I can't imagine wanting to begin a long term campaign at or above 7th. I have however noted a whole lot of younger players who have never played anything lower. To be frank, they have absolutely pathetic dungeon crawling skills, in part because they have always had a ready spell or magic item as the solution to most any problem they encounter. By 7th level, even in 3rd edition, my characters have started seeming just a little too proficient - not that things with sufficient CR 'overage' don't challenge them - but that they seldom are stretched beyond thier class abilities to find a solution to a problem. I reject the notion that 1st level characters aren't heroic. To my mind, the most heroic period is that point in the heroes clear when he is faced by the most overwhelming odd and must succeed on his own merits despite this. The point that I find this true occurs down in the mid to low levels. As a DM, the time I enjoy most is when I can start throwing the bigger foes at them, but the average foes are still troublesome. I can send orcs after 6th level characters, but it gets pretty pointless to send them after 10th level characters unless I stack the odds pretty heavily in some fashion. All the sudden, my world, hereto previously inhabited with orcs and goblins, has to contain leveled ogres and outsiders (and so on and so forth). It just doesn't feel right. [/QUOTE]

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