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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6201936" data-attributes="member: 6677017">Nitpick: You have to take an action to hide, even if you are invisible.Lots of stuff to think about. I don't agree 100% with the given interpretations, but I think I've identified the problem.(Incidentally, I could have simplified the scenario by saying it's a wide open field, and one of the groups is invisible, but the cavern is more likely to come up.)The way I would now interpret my own scenario is that the orcs will see the party from a long ways away and cannot be surprised. The orcs can therefore avoid the party, or attempt to move closer and ambush them. It appear that an encounter begins when both groups become aware of each other. As long as the adventurers do not become aware of the orcs before the orcs shoot crossbows at them, the orcs can choose when to begin the encounter. It would appear that when one of the orcs decides to fire, everyone (on both side) rolls initiative. This is important because a surprised character can take reactions after his first turn. This also means that orcs that don't have crossbows might have to pass on their actions (or ready an action to do something right after the orcs with the crossbows fire). The party members also make their individual Wisdom (Perception) checks to see which, if any, of the orcs they are now aware of, based on hearing.The only real question regards when the party would have a pre-combat chance to detect invisible creatures. A crossbow has a long range of 400', and a short range of 100'. How close can the group get before checks are made based on hearing? It seems, following common sense, that the checks would begin at the same distance at which the adventurers would automatically detect the invisible group if they weren't sneaking. If this distance is too far is makes invisibility seriously weak. For instance, do you automatically hear an invisible creature walking 400' from you if it isn't trying to be quiet?Which clarifies the real question: What is the distance for detecting other creatures based on hearing? If we know that, the rules appear sufficient to deal with the scenarios. Now, I'm not asking for precise rules. Just some sort of guidance so that DMs have a common frame of reference.</blockquote>

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