Perception checks

[Flipguarder]

Barring time crunches, where you have to get something done quickly in game, isn't it safe to assume that a group of pcs in a dungeon is making perception checks all the time?

If I was in a recently abandoned drow settlement underground looking for treasure I would be keeping a sharper eye out than sitting at home watching a fire.

Do you guys have any advice on how to run perception checks in a dungeon? how often to have the players roll them, or advice I should give them based on these presumptions I've made?

 

[Hereticus]

Barring time crunches, where you have to get something done quickly in game, isn't it safe to assume that a group of pcs in a dungeon is making perception checks all the time?

If I was in a recently abandoned drow settlement underground looking for treasure I would be keeping a sharper eye out than sitting at home watching a fire.

Do you guys have any advice on how to run perception checks in a dungeon? how often to have the players roll them, or advice I should give them based on these presumptions I've made?

When a character is traveling or exploring during an adventure, the default passive check is 10+skill.

Now perhaps the characters were moving at half speed to be more cautios, perhaps the default would be 12 to 15 instead of 10.

But let's say that the characters were drunk or rushing through and area, perhaps that default could be as low as 5.

There is no rule in the book, but that might work for you.

 

[Flipguarder]

so 10+perception bonus is passive. Does "passive" imply that the characters are in a possibly perilous situation (like a dungeon) and are looking out for danger more than they would be, say walking down the street to the market place.

Or to better phrase it. According to raw "passive" perception is danger lurking around every corner, eating dinner with friends, or both?

 

[mach1.9pants]

The way I interpret it is 'passive' applies only when you are in a cautious type mode, i.e. when you are walking through a dungeon. If you wanted to be even more cautious you'd have to play round by round with rolls, and only half of those would be better than what you already got.
If you were totally relaxed in what you though was a safe environment then passive wouldn't apply, maybe just your perception score or something. However this is obviously not RAW

By the RAW, unless you want to round by round travel through the dungeon, with perception rolls (and, maybe, the PCs not moving until they significantly beat their passive check.. YAWN) then passive covers every situation until they use a minor action to roll.

 

[Nail]

Here's what the PH1 says:

"In most situations,
the DM uses your passive Perception check
result to determine if you notice a clue or an imminent
danger."

and

"For example, if you’re walking through an area
you expect to be safe and thus aren’t actively looking
around for danger, you’re taking 10 on your Perception
check to notice hidden objects or enemies."

 

[Kinneus]

Here's my problem with passive perception checks; if you know your party well enough, you'll know ahead of time whether or not they'll find it. Let's say you're making a level 1 dungeon. You know your party's Perception checks run the gamut from 10-22. If you make a secret door in the dungeon that is DC 30 to find, you know the party will never find it. If you make it DC 15, you know the party will always find it. What's the point of passive perception, then? What's the difference between using passive perception or arbitrarily deciding whether or not the party finds the object in question? The only thing I ever end up using it for is seeing if the party notices a stealthy-type monster sneaking up, because at least stealth rolls have some variability.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Here's my problem with passive perception checks; if you know your party well enough, you'll know ahead of time whether or not they'll find it. Let's say you're making a level 1 dungeon. You know your party's Perception checks run the gamut from 10-22. If you make a secret door in the dungeon that is DC 30 to find, you know the party will never find it. If you make it DC 15, you know the party will always find it. What's the point of passive perception, then? What's the difference between using passive perception or arbitrarily deciding whether or not the party finds the object in question? The only thing I ever end up using it for is seeing if the party notices a stealthy-type monster sneaking up, because at least stealth rolls have some variability.

They key here is that they will find it if they search for it. Essentially if you want them to find a door while they are searching a room after a combat with no time retrain (ie perception+20) then make it a DC 30. If you want the party to just notice something no matter what, make it a DC 15. And if you want something that only the people in the party who are good at perception checks to see make it a DC 22. Beyond that its used in opposed checks, but thats it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I tend to tackle the issue from a different angle. I design the dungeon based on why it was built and by whom, and perhaps what their resources were. Some secrets they'll automatically find. Others they'll need to actively search for. I'd say some they'll never find, but in reality I rarely send my PCs into a dungeon that overmatches them, unless I intend for them to return to the location several times or after several levels (or both). In which case at first there will be some secrets they simply cannot find.

Basically, aside from deciding "this is a dungeon my players are not too low for" I don't design with any eye toward the PCs at all, but rather toward the sensibility of the dungeon's crafters.

Then again, I don't favor "dungeon riddles" for much the same reason, so I suppose my approach may not be for everyone.

 

[Neubert]

I think I read some time ago on these boards someone complaining about traps (and hidden doors) being automatically spotted. I think the easiest way is simply to have the trap/secret door roll a stealth check (reduce the DC by 10 and add the roll a d20). The roll might account for the skill of the maker, or perhaps the door has become more visible over the years due to use, etc.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think I read some time ago on these boards someone complaining about traps (and hidden doors) being automatically spotted. I think the easiest way is simply to have the trap/secret door roll a stealth check (reduce the DC by 10 and add the roll a d20). The roll might account for the skill of the maker, or perhaps the door has become more visible over the years due to use, etc.

Traps are usually a lot more fun if the party both spot them and have to deal with them under pressure. A solo trap is a boring encounter that is resolved by one character rolling a few skill checks or attack rolls. Sure someone might lose a surge or two, but it's a bit dry.

Same trap in the middle of a fight is a lot different: you don't have the time to have people stand back.