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Message: <blockquote data-quote="77IM" data-source="post: 4821172" data-attributes="member: 12377">I think most people would very much disagree with that.What does have a bearing, then?  Do the dictionary definitions of Dexterity and Wisdom have more bearing on the game than the PHB definition?  If "wisdom includes perception" has worked -- and made sense --for the popular 3e and all its derivatives (Star Wars, M&M, T20, Spycraft, 4e) and all those people playing them, maybe there is something there that you are missing regarding how other players perceive Wisdom, Dexterity, and the ability to notice things."What traits should characters have and what do they cover?" is a very difficult issue that has plagued RPGs for generations.  It's doubly difficult for mental traits, like Wisdom and Perception, because humans are complicated and mental capabilities don't really fall into three neat buckets like we want them too.  Because the meaning of traits is subjective, I can't argue that you are "wrong" to want to have Dexterity cover Perception.  I can only say that I disagree, and also that in my experience most players would also disagree.You make an interesting observation about rogues being bad at something in their niche (although, clerics, warlords, fighters, etc. all need to take a feat to get Perception training, while rogues can get it as a class skill), but I consider that a larger flaw in how 4e uses ability scores and encourages min-maxing, not a specific issue with rogues and Wisdom. -- 77IM</blockquote>

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