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<blockquote data-quote="haakon1" data-source="post: 3758232" data-attributes="member: 25619">This thinking is very strange to me.&nbsp; The assumption appears to be:1) DM's are playing against players.2) The goal of D&amp;D is to win.That couldn't be further from my thinking.&nbsp; To me, DM &amp; players are more like a music group.&nbsp; They have fun when they work well together, which requires some degree of natural ability or training, but also trust and enough good will to get along.You're basically saying: &quot;Drummers have been mean to me in the past.&nbsp; Drummers cannot be trusted.&nbsp; Only if there is written sheet music and a metronome can we determine if the drummer is trying to throw off my tempo, causing my sax playing to be off and making me &quot;lose&quot; the set.&nbsp; Jamming is therefore always wrong bad fun, and any musicians who can't read sheet music are wack jobs.&quot;As a singer who can't read music particularly well, I disagree with that.&nbsp; (As our choir director once said to me: &quot;That's a pretty good tenor part.&nbsp; Sounds good, fits right into the fugue.&nbsp; But it's not what Mozart wrote.&nbsp; So try it again like this.&quot;)&nbsp;&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Sure, there's advantages to writing down sheet music, as a way of recording great ideas and of teaching noobs faster.&nbsp; But it's not a necessary pre-condition for good music, which is rather obvious when you realize good music predated whatever geniuses invented a way of writing it down.To me, the same is true of D&amp;D.And furthermore, I believe the goal of D&amp;D is for all participants to have fun.&nbsp; It's possible to lose (in a TPK), which may or may not be fun, but if cheating is even possible, there's really no point to it.&nbsp; The &quot;fudging&quot; (I wouldn't call it cheating) of dice rolls I've actually seen at game tables, with myself or others as DM, has ALWAYS been to the advantage of the PC's.(Edit: From reading further along, I see it doesn't make a difference to you which way it is fudged.&nbsp; It seems like it's more about the &quot;integrity&quot; of a game as a system.&nbsp; Interesting, and a different way from how I think about it.&nbsp; I think I might actually get what you're saying now.&nbsp; More of an engineering mindset than a liberal arts one.This leaves my neat idea about computer RPG's being like drum machines less relevant, but still an interesting observation for 1980s era gamers.&nbsp; Gosh, drum machines were no fun!)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="haakon1, post: 3758232, member: 25619"] This thinking is very strange to me. The assumption appears to be: 1) DM's are playing against players. 2) The goal of D&D is to win. That couldn't be further from my thinking. To me, DM & players are more like a music group. They have fun when they work well together, which requires some degree of natural ability or training, but also trust and enough good will to get along. You're basically saying: "Drummers have been mean to me in the past. Drummers cannot be trusted. Only if there is written sheet music and a metronome can we determine if the drummer is trying to throw off my tempo, causing my sax playing to be off and making me "lose" the set. Jamming is therefore always wrong bad fun, and any musicians who can't read sheet music are wack jobs." As a singer who can't read music particularly well, I disagree with that. (As our choir director once said to me: "That's a pretty good tenor part. Sounds good, fits right into the fugue. But it's not what Mozart wrote. So try it again like this.") :) Sure, there's advantages to writing down sheet music, as a way of recording great ideas and of teaching noobs faster. But it's not a necessary pre-condition for good music, which is rather obvious when you realize good music predated whatever geniuses invented a way of writing it down. To me, the same is true of D&D. And furthermore, I believe the goal of D&D is for all participants to have fun. It's possible to lose (in a TPK), which may or may not be fun, but if cheating is even possible, there's really no point to it. The "fudging" (I wouldn't call it cheating) of dice rolls I've actually seen at game tables, with myself or others as DM, has ALWAYS been to the advantage of the PC's. (Edit: From reading further along, I see it doesn't make a difference to you which way it is fudged. It seems like it's more about the "integrity" of a game as a system. Interesting, and a different way from how I think about it. I think I might actually get what you're saying now. More of an engineering mindset than a liberal arts one. This leaves my neat idea about computer RPG's being like drum machines less relevant, but still an interesting observation for 1980s era gamers. Gosh, drum machines were no fun!) [/QUOTE]

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