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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Valiant" data-source="post: 3763385" data-attributes="member: 54792">Wow, that was a very bad habit.  You were not experiancing then what most experiance that play the game (and the way it was designed to be played) one DM vs. several players (rather you co-DMed, a recipe for disaster if you ask me).  In our group several of us also had the tables pretty much memorized, but not looking at them and having respect for the DM made all the difference, still does.  Honestly, how did you have any fun that way?    As far as getting players to make you a better DM, the best way they can do that is feedback. "that game was boring".  "that was really cool esp. x,y and z". Not by explaining the rules to you and telling you your doing this or that wrong (unless your training a DM, and that is best done when your not playing but watching on).   Man, there's no nice way to say this, but your group dynamic was defective and sick.  You didn't realize (or care) that there was a devision of labor, a line that shouldn't be crossed.  Too bad, I think its  jaded your entire experiance with AD&D.  Many of the defects you seem to find are the result of how you played rather then the rules themselves.  The corner stone of AD&D is DM is in complete control...how on earth did you miss this memo. It is his imagination and his rules, don't like it, then grow up...its just a game.  Giving yourself the freedom to accept your DMs call is what allows the players to immerse and forget they're playing a game.  Its the same thing with sports.  Everyone knows the rules of the game, the parents, the kids, the couches.  But we all agree to abide by what the refs call.  Thats what allows the game to continue rather then turning into some bickering match.  But in 1E it goes one further.  The ref (DM) has a variety of tools to determine what to role (including his mood), and can even change the rules as he likes (though the players will revolt if he abuses this power).  That total freedom however, is essental, and it allows the DM to mold his world, and gives the players the freedom to relax (since what they object to is null and void before they say it, if he likes). Your right if your thinking a bad DM could abuse this.  But your also right if you think the players wouldn't just get up and leave (which I've witnessed before...though that was a 2E DM trying to DM some early 1Eers).  One thing you might want to try is this, (if you ever do go back to AD&D)  make up your own tables (combat and saves) that differ from 1Es, maybe have them role 3d6 or something, and tell your players your sick of them crossing over the DM line, to just focus on there imaginations, forget they're playing a game.   I've done this before and it works (when I didn't have a D20 while travelling, I've even used cards before, it also works, with some care you really can get close).  This will throw them off a bit, and perhaps let them experiance 1E the way it was meant to be for the first time in decades (players vs. DM, rather then player/co-DM vs. weak demoralized DM).   See, the point isn't so much following the exact ratios and tables.  The point is having tables to keep your players mystifide.  The more mystifide the better (because the more it feels like real life). Good luck, and I hope you try it.</blockquote>

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