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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 8205624" data-attributes="member: 97077">This really is just an error in reading the stakes in my view. The stakes aren't figure out how to open the secret door versus figure out how to open the secret door. In such a situation, no roll is necessary because the win and loss conditions are the same - success. Rather, the stakes are to figure out how to open the secret door without drawing unwanted attention versus figure out how to open it while drawing unwanted attention. It isn't &quot;no matter what you roll, you succeed!&quot; Far from it. Choose a setback that is a meaningful consequence in context and you're good. We're not disallowing failure as you suggest here. It's still a failure - progress combined with a setback (PHB, pg. 174).Alternatively, if all the clues are present for the character to reasonably figure out how to open the secret door, but the outcome is still uncertain, then the meaningful consequence for failure can also be time spent on it, provided time matters. The character can keep at it in 10 minute increments, for example, and every increment or few increments the DM will make a wandering monster check. Or the clock is counting down to some kind of doom the characters don't want to occur. It's up to the player if it's worth spending time on it and how much.If the clues are not present for the character to reasonably figure out how to open the secret door, perhaps because as you say the trigger is in some other room, then they spend the time on the task and fail, no roll. A generous DM might hint that the effort reveals that more clues need to be found and they just aren't here. They might then decide as you suggest to just crowbar the thing open or skip it altogether.But roll the dice and nothing happens? Nah. Not in my game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 8205624, member: 97077"] This really is just an error in reading the stakes in my view. The stakes aren't [I]figure out how to open the secret door versus figure out how to open the secret door[/I]. In such a situation, no roll is necessary because the win and loss conditions are the same - success. Rather, the stakes are to [I]figure out how to open the secret door without drawing unwanted attention versus figure out how to open it while drawing unwanted attention. [/I]It isn't "no matter what you roll, you succeed!" Far from it. Choose a setback that is a meaningful consequence in context and you're good. We're not [I]disallowing [/I]failure as you suggest here. It's still a failure - progress combined with a setback (PHB, pg. 174). Alternatively, if all the clues are present for the character to reasonably figure out how to open the secret door, but the outcome is still uncertain, then the meaningful consequence for failure can also be time spent on it, provided time matters. The character can keep at it in 10 minute increments, for example, and every increment or few increments the DM will make a wandering monster check. Or the clock is counting down to some kind of doom the characters don't want to occur. It's up to the player if it's worth spending time on it and how much. If the clues are not present for the character to reasonably figure out how to open the secret door, perhaps because as you say the trigger is in some other room, then they spend the time on the task and fail, no roll. A generous DM might hint that the effort reveals that more clues need to be found and they just aren't here. They might then decide as you suggest to just crowbar the thing open or skip it altogether. But roll the dice and nothing happens? Nah. Not in my game. [/QUOTE]

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