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Message: <blockquote data-quote="lkwpeter" data-source="post: 7054805" data-attributes="member: 6804713">Actually, we are not far away in most points.Your example:1.) You do see that the mosaic has black spots, just like it has red, purple, green ones and runes and whatever. You are investigating something you are already looking at, and want to know more about it.2.) You either realize that what you are looking at is not what you expected it to be or you don't.My point of view:1.) You see a room. You gain plenty of impressions. You see everything that is obvious und therefore described through the DM. You see a mosaik as one part of the room.2.) What you do NOT automatically recognize are faint black spots on the mosaic. Yes, you automatically see them, if the character pays its attention to it. But if it just walks through the room, there is no way, the character automatically sees differences on the mosaic! A perception check is needed. Afterwards Investigation for deducing the information found. All in all, I am speaking of that "uncertain outcome" (PHB, p. 174) of ability checks. If a character turns its attention to the "mosaic" or "doorknob" (see examples above), I am fine with your interpretation. But if the character just walks through the room with the mosaic or opens the door without putting much attention to it, the outcome is uncertain. And that means, Passive Perception comes into play. If the character fails the check, there is nothing to deduce.My intention was, that the UA Trap rules seem to skip the part of a possible uncertain outcome of perception. To raise the stakes: Let's say the character is blind. How would it be able to deduce those facts that it can't even see? The new rules doesn't take such things into cosideration at all. They imply that any Perception check is dispensable, if an Investigation check is made. Maybe they don't intent to. But if you read the whole document and compare situations where a Perception check is needed and those that require an Investigation check, you somehow end up in this conclusion.That's exactly what I am speaking of. Happy to hear that. Thanks for your comment!</blockquote>

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