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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6575904" data-attributes="member: 20323">Ok, so with a room that is smaller on the inside than the outside (let's say it not drastic and is meant to tip the players off to the presence of secret rooms in the architecture), here is what I'd do...Perception: Observed phenomenon only, like the faint outline of a door or scuff marks onthe floor (from a secret door being opened), or tapestry weathered especially on one side about shoulder height where NPC grasped it and pulled it aside (revealing a concealed passage). Information in parentheses the DM would not share with the player- the player would need to discover it on their own.Investigation: Deductions and conclusions based on previous details or knowledge, like realizing on their map (whether physical or mental) that 20-ft of space is unaccounted for. The DM would also offer a leading remark, such as "20-foot thick walls would seem like overkill to you" or outright say "the inside space is smaller than the outside, and you suspect there are secret rooms close to the outer wall" (depending on how the group likes to play).Perception is about noticing presence of creatures and things. Noticing the absence of something implies that you are using logic about why that absence is significant or you have a reason to be looking for the absence that thing based on a hunch or prior information. So here's how I'd use the two skills in this case...Perception (about what's happening at the gambling tables): ...the shady players put up bets with mounds of electrum, gold, and platinum, rare jewels, copper urns, and strange deep purple gems that seem to slightly glow from the corner of your eye... (recognizing the absence of silver is left to the player)Investigation (examining a game closely, maybe following a hunch the gamblers are more than they seem): Something strikes you - no silver is traded whatsoever, not as coins, trade bars, art objects, or jewelry. The disdainful glance the player across the table gives your silver bracers confirms that these men seem to have an aversion to silver.I think that would be reasonable. I do worry about the issue of "clue blocking" when the DM presents information needed to continue the adventure behind a skill check like Gather Information or Investigation or Streetwise. Obviously, that can be avoided thru good design/DMing, but it's a problem to be aware of & suggests the type of information that Gather Information or Investigation or Streetwise should provide.</blockquote>

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