Permanent spells after death

[thegreyman]

We can't find a reference for this. A character in my campaign was hit with Insanity and then died. Will she still be crazy when she gets raised? Raise dead specifies that it doesn't remove curses when they come back, but insanity isn't a curse.

Thoughts?

 

[Hypersmurf]

We can't find a reference for this. A character in my campaign was hit with Insanity and then died. Will she still be crazy when she gets raised? Raise dead specifies that it doesn't remove curses when they come back, but insanity isn't a curse.

Greater Restoration, Wish, Miracle, Heal, or Limited Wish... Raise Dead isn't on the list.

-Hyp.

 

[Shayuri]

Yeah, but I don't think Insanity works once the life is gone. Death ends that spell, if nothing else by virtue of the target becoming mindless, and therefore no longer an applicable subject for the spell.

Once the spell ends, it's over. Raising the dead guy wouldn't cause the spell to recast itself.

Granted, it's not the Raise Dead that's 'curing' him...it's the fact that dead guys can't be insane. Still.

 

[LonePaladin]

The spell itself is instantaneous, and no longer exists as such after taking effect. The effect itself — in this case, continuous confusion — is persistent, however. This means that the confusion will apply any time the target is subject to a mind-affecting effect. (I hope that made sense.)

Note that a change in the subject's status or form doesn't remove existing spell effects. If someone is under the effects of an enlarge person spell, then gets polymorphed into a sheepdog, the enlarge person isn't removed or dispelled: it just no longer affects the target, because they're no longer humanoid. If you successfully dispel the polymorph effect while leaving the enlarge person spell intact, they will change back into their original form, albeit twice as tall.

The PDF Portable Hole Full of Beer (This Product Contains No Alcohol) included a 'dead' template, which if applied to any creature turned it into a dead version of that creature. While it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, they did accurately reflect the rules, and it never stated that ongoing spell effects were removed.

(Incidentally, that PDF has been updated with a sequel, now titled Bride of Portable Hole Full of Beer: The Book of Neurotic Fantasy. Unfortunately, it's no longer free (it's now $1.99).

 

[Slaved]

Why would the sheepdog not be enlarged? I thought that spells only checked for valid targets when they were cast and not continuously.

I would expect the insanity to last through death. While dead though does that mean that the spirit is insane, that the body is insane, or both? If the body is insane does anyone need to roll on the chart to see what the dead body does? I find the results of such a check to be of enormous comedic potential depending on the dungeon master!

 

[Maleketh]

I'd venture to say that the mind is insane, and it's nonfunctional while the creature is dead, so the insanity doesn't have any relevant effect during that time. Of course, upon returning to life, the character might immediately try to attack the unfortunate priest. >_<

Although the prospect of an insane soul is rather amusing.

 

[LonePaladin]

Nope on both counts. Enlarge person only works on humanoids, and if someone is changed into a different type of creature, the spell can't work on him. Another example is entangling someone who has expeditious retreat cast on them. An entangled creature has an effective speed of zero; they can't move, but this doesn't remove the effect of the spell.

As for a confused corpse, well, a creature's spirit doesn't carry along any of the spells that are affecting the body. This spirit, in most cases, is busy traveling to the plane relevant to their world's afterlife (the Fugue Plain in the Forgotten Realms, Dolurrh in Eberron, and their alignment-based plane in Greyhawk), so the point's somewhat moot. As for the body, well, dead creatures are unable to take any action unless they're imbued with the ability from an external source — animation as an undead, or the speak with dead spell — so you don't have to worry about a corpse randomly wandering about.

Once you raise the body, however, you still have to contend with the insanity effect... but if you're powerful (and wealthy) enough to cast raise dead or hire someone else to do it, you'll have the resources to remove an insanity effect. And if you're high enough level to have to worry about someone casting insanity on you right before killing you, you've definitely got the ability to get both conditions cleared up in fairly short order.

 

[Slaved]

Enlarge person only works on humanoids, and if someone is changed into a different type of creature, the spell can't work on him. Another example is entangling someone who has expeditious retreat cast on them. An entangled creature has an effective speed of zero; they can't move, but this doesn't remove the effect of the spell.

Since this is still kindof on topic I hope it is ok to talk about.

Where does it say in the rules that a creature with enlarge person cast on it that is changed into a nonhumanoid stops being enlarged though? I know the spell could not be cast on a nonhumanoid to begin with but once there what is stopping it from working?

Two examples.
Polymorph specifically mentions what happens if the creature dies while it is under effect.
Shillelagh cancels itself and reapplies constantly creating a horrible loop if what you are saying is true.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope on both counts. Enlarge person only works on humanoids, and if someone is changed into a different type of creature, the spell can't work on him.

How do you resolve the Shillelagh spell, for example? The target is a non-magical club. When you cast the spell, the target gains an enhancement bonus, making it a magical club, and thus not a valid target for Shillelagh.

If you consider spells to check target validity at casting time, there's no problem. If you consider them to continuously poll, however, the spell is now invalid.

For what it's worth, the 3.5 Main FAQ addressed this question directly:
If, while under the effect of a spell that depends on type
(such as Hold Person), my character is transformed into a
different creature type by Polymorph, does the spell’s
effect remain?

Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via
the Polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Shayuri]

Interesting...

It seems a little odd that you can be Dominated, die, and then be raised still Dominated.

But it's far from the oddest thing about the rules.

So be it!