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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Imaculata" data-source="post: 6735432" data-attributes="member: 6801286"><p>This sounds like the same debacle as we had in third edition. Insight is not a lie-detector. Neither is Sense Motive in third edition. Players and DM's have consistently been misunderstanding how these skills should be used.</p><p></p><p><strong>Player:</strong> "Did you just cheat during that game of cards?"</p><p><strong>Npc:</strong> "No, I played completely fair."<em> (<strong>A lie. No skill check needed</strong>)</em></p><p><strong>Player:</strong> "I want to know if he's lying. I roll insight!" <em>(<strong>16, success!)</strong></em></p><p><em><strong></strong></em><strong>DM: <em>(Rolls deception for the npc. 14 failure!)</em></strong></p><p><strong>DM:</strong> "He seems a bit nervous at the mere suggestion that he was cheating, but you have no idea if he's lying."</p><p></p><p>Of course you don't. Insight does not detect lies. Here's a better scenario to show the correct use of Insight.</p><p></p><p><strong>Player:</strong> I play another game of cards with him, but I keep a close eye on any tells that he's cheating.</p><p><strong>DM: </strong>Halfway into the game, his eyes wander from the game.</p><p><strong>Player:</strong> Can I check what he's looking at?</p><p><strong>DM:</strong> Roll for insight.</p><p><strong>Player:</strong> <em>(<strong>16, success!</strong>)</em></p><p><strong>DM:</strong> <em>(<strong>Rolls deception for the other npc.</strong> <strong>14, Failure!</strong>)</em></p><p><strong>DM:</strong> His eyes seem to glance at another person in the audience, who is conveniently standing in a position where he has a clear view of your cards. </p><p><strong>Player:</strong> Now I know for sure he is cheating!</p><p></p><p>And depending on how successful the player is, you could give out additional information. Maybe the player also notices how the npc in the audience is holding out a couple of his fingers to give signals to the cheating card player. But that is all up to the DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you can figure out the true intentions of a creature, which may give clues whether someone is being truthful, or lying. But it's not an automatic lie detector. Similarly, an intimidate does not automatically scare players or npc's away, and diplomacy does not immediately stop hostile creatures from attacking. Its poorly phrased in the 5th edition PHB, but it hasn't really changed from 3rd edition.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Imaculata, post: 6735432, member: 6801286"] This sounds like the same debacle as we had in third edition. Insight is not a lie-detector. Neither is Sense Motive in third edition. Players and DM's have consistently been misunderstanding how these skills should be used. [B]Player:[/B] "Did you just cheat during that game of cards?" [B]Npc:[/B] "No, I played completely fair."[I] ([B]A lie. No skill check needed[/B])[/I] [B]Player:[/B] "I want to know if he's lying. I roll insight!" [I]([B]16, success!) [/B][/I][B]DM: [I](Rolls deception for the npc. 14 failure!)[/I][/B] [B]DM:[/B] "He seems a bit nervous at the mere suggestion that he was cheating, but you have no idea if he's lying." Of course you don't. Insight does not detect lies. Here's a better scenario to show the correct use of Insight. [B]Player:[/B] I play another game of cards with him, but I keep a close eye on any tells that he's cheating. [B]DM: [/B]Halfway into the game, his eyes wander from the game. [B]Player:[/B] Can I check what he's looking at? [B]DM:[/B] Roll for insight. [B]Player:[/B] [I]([B]16, success![/B])[/I] [B]DM:[/B] [I]([B]Rolls deception for the other npc.[/B] [B]14, Failure![/B])[/I] [B]DM:[/B] His eyes seem to glance at another person in the audience, who is conveniently standing in a position where he has a clear view of your cards. [B]Player:[/B] Now I know for sure he is cheating! And depending on how successful the player is, you could give out additional information. Maybe the player also notices how the npc in the audience is holding out a couple of his fingers to give signals to the cheating card player. But that is all up to the DM. So, you can figure out the true intentions of a creature, which may give clues whether someone is being truthful, or lying. But it's not an automatic lie detector. Similarly, an intimidate does not automatically scare players or npc's away, and diplomacy does not immediately stop hostile creatures from attacking. Its poorly phrased in the 5th edition PHB, but it hasn't really changed from 3rd edition. [/QUOTE]
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