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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6741278" data-attributes="member: 67338">OK, I think that choice A is closer to my games (although to be fair it's a little of both maybe 70% A and 30%B) I've now been told I am all three... I am often called 'gamest' because I put fun at the table first...sometimes I get call 'narativist' but this is the first time I've been called simulationist....  I have a love/hate relationship with wargames... it feels weird to me. I got into a big fight with one of my older players when he tried to run a campaign of a wargame (10 players in a tournny style) because the first time I played him I had all my minis hidden out of his mini's line of sight, but he still just moved into line of sight...his argument was I was to "RPG"minded he knew everything out of game... That is what I like most about RPGs... I very much disagreeyes that is true... but it's not roleplaying at all if you have your Int 8 wis 9 character always come up with brilliant plans. It's not roleplaying to talk about how your str 8 character carries a 150lb bundle of straw/hey. It's also not roleplaying to have your cha 8 half orc with a barbarian like background to charm everyone you meet just because you can out talk the DM... or most important to this discussion, I don't think it's role playing to just decide that your character is in no way motivated or moved by in game stimiuli... see in game and out of game is different here, I don't have to hit you with an arrow, my character hits your character with an arrow... well I've never seen that exact scenero (because normally when 1 PC wont join the quest of the game our answer is "Ok, do you not want to play tonight?" or "OK, now draw up a different character...one that WILL play tonight") it really is the same as the arrow above... I don't have to convince my NPC does... so we need to test HOW WELL he does at convincing... I'm lost here... are you saying now you have no issue with rolling intimidate?so in this scenero who has to make an argument?  strawman... no one ever said "Into agreeing to do X" find me any quote of that... Intimadation is how scary you are. It is a trait in the world it is still up to the PC how he reacts... YOU and other posters who don't like it keep pretending I take away control...no matter how many times I explain it. Try this before you or anyone else responds think about this... if there is some way that you can interpret what I am saying into 'takeing away player free choice' you are reading what I am saying wrong. so your orc intimidated him but the PC decided that he wasn't backing down just because he was intimidated...sounds like one of my games so far...3 scenerios... 1) the round robin DM.  2) the character tree. 3) the player that can't make every game.  all three of these are common enough that I can't remember a full 2 year peirode since 95 that one or more wasn't true of my games... so this Tuesday Magni one eye the tough as nails dwarf (Barbarian/fighter multi class) is an NPC, but next week he is a PC.  I hate that wargamey and videogamey are ways we try to pigon hole each other... even more so when people do so without understanding the other's preffrences.... yes, and if there is a question that needs answering "Hey how X is that character" then there are systems in place to show it...yes and no. the same problem as I pointed out back on pg 1 or 2 when I said we had players who wanted to play faces and bard ect, but suck at talking things out, and we had very persuasive people playing low cha characters...Gee Randy and Dave put there 7 and 8 into cha, no ranks in any social skills(this was 3.0 and 3.5) but not only are really good oraiters but in the case of randy can wrap the DM around his finger with ease... Ross on the other hand is shy and studders and isn't very good at doing so... but Ross is a Cha 17 assimar sorcerer/rogue and Dave is a cha 9 half orc barbarian, and randy is a CHa 8 half oger fighter/mageI was a PC in the game above and watched as every NPC talked to Randy, some to Dave, and no matter how awesome ross's character should have been,  he wasn't because the DM didn't understand at the time what was happeneing (and to this day that DM feels bad about letting randy run over the game the way he did)I agree...yes the invulantary 'hey I got hit' and the invulantary 'hey I was intimadated' or 'hey I fell for the bluff' are all the same... it's how you react that matters... how is it possible not to have a meaningful choice? but in your mind if the results are deteminded by dice it lost the roleplaying??? I don't understand. please tell me when anyone said they were...nope... forget the game for a moment and tell me an example of when you in real life have CHOSEN to be intimidated... that is my argument...I'm not sure I would even go that far... once again there is 0 choice in the real world or the game world in being intimidated. when I was in highschool (and was playing and running 2e) there was a guy named Ron... he was my age but a year lower then me in school (due to my birthday being in sept and his in Jan) he used to intimidate people all the time. He was almost a characticture of a bully. I never did what he said. Because no matter how scared I was (aka intimidated) my stubern steak was more important...When I took a group of friends out for one of there 21st birthdays we went bar hopping. In one bar a guy that had no neck and looked like he could rip apart my car let alone me was hitting on a friend of mine and she wanted to get away from him. When I told him to leave her alone he and some of his friends all told me they would kick my butt... I had no choice in how my body reacted. I was afraid. I was terrified. To this day (15 years later) one of my friends who was there swears I was so white in the face I looked like I was about to pass out... you know what choice I did have. HOW I REACTED TO BEING INTIMADTAED. I told them they could kick my butt all they wanted, they gave id to get in like everyone else, and camaras were all over the bar, so I hope you can kick the butt of everyone in your jail cell too.at no point does being intimidated mind control you. it does inform how your characters involonatary system reacts...now you the PC chooise how to roleplay that...two cities over from me a guy was murdered in a bar last year or the year before... because he walked in wearing something that a local biker gang didn't like. They told him to not wear those colors and this guy told a dozen+ bikers it was a free country... I know this story well because we have discussed it a lot over the last year...witch of my friends would have been 'smart' enough to say "Sorry" and change there close or leave and witch would have been 'DUmb' enough to let that escalate... in that time I don't know of anyone who would say "I would choose not to be intimidated"It almost sounds like all your PCs are Data from that star trek movie with the borg "I'm feeling anxiety, and fear" followed by "I'll switch off my emotion chip" then he's fine and someone else makes the joke "There are times I envy you data"   in your world instead of roleplaying being intimidated PCs all have a magic switch they can choose on or off.... funny thing, I don't substitute either... the dice enhance not subsititue....ha ha ha... false dichotomy is your whole argument...hey look another strawman... when did I say 'go along with what the orc wants"</blockquote>

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