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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6742965" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Just the resolution system. Players declare actions, that's what sets the sub-system in motion. </p><p></p><p>It's not the check that's critical, but the action. The DM determines success or failure, or delegates that determination to a die, but the player decides what he's trying to accomplish, using what resources.</p><p></p><p>Declaring a die roll has never been a great idea, IMHO, because the player may know what he want's to do, but doing it may not be based on what he thinks it is. The key to getting an NPCs cooperation may be insight into his motivation (WIS), and no amount of diplomancy/intimidation/deception (CHA) will matter, for instance. Though the need to reduce it to single check doesn't help. </p><p></p><p>In 5e, the assumption is that the DM's Rulings trump the rules, whether the rules dictate something or are silent. That's more than just 'Rule-0' permission to change the rules, it's more dynamic than that, it can be in the moment, ruling what's best for the play experience.</p><p></p><p>When they matter, sure, and that's not a problem. The DM does get to decide when there's uncertainty that calls for a die roll, though, so there's some flexibility, there. If the players /should/ succeed at something to move the story along or because it makes sense, they do. If not, they don't. If it's uncertain, you roll. The check, itself, isn't narrative power, it's delegating narrative power to the dice. The player's agency is in choosing the actions.</p><p></p><p>I'm with you on this point, I think. In terms of resolving what a character can do, what needs to matter is the character, not the player. The player's agency is in deciding what the character tries to accomplish, not whether he succeeds (beyond meta-game bits like spending Inspiration or making chargen/level-up choices, of course). It's the abilities of the character and the difficulty of the action, now how well the player might be able to accomplish that action or a facsimile of it that the DM should weigh in determining success. That's why 'just RP it,' can be so un-satisfying and frustrating, because it goes from resolving the scene based on the character's abilities, to based on the player's, the character stops mattering. </p><p></p><p>DM Empowerment is relative to the system, not necessarily to the players. The game is still player-focused and player-driven, it's their heroes' collective story. 5e DMs are Empowered over the system, the system has DM-dependency built-in from the most basic mechanics on. The system's only as good as the DM. The player's aren't irrelevant, the system just doesn't depend on them to remain functional.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6742965, member: 996"] Just the resolution system. Players declare actions, that's what sets the sub-system in motion. It's not the check that's critical, but the action. The DM determines success or failure, or delegates that determination to a die, but the player decides what he's trying to accomplish, using what resources. Declaring a die roll has never been a great idea, IMHO, because the player may know what he want's to do, but doing it may not be based on what he thinks it is. The key to getting an NPCs cooperation may be insight into his motivation (WIS), and no amount of diplomancy/intimidation/deception (CHA) will matter, for instance. Though the need to reduce it to single check doesn't help. In 5e, the assumption is that the DM's Rulings trump the rules, whether the rules dictate something or are silent. That's more than just 'Rule-0' permission to change the rules, it's more dynamic than that, it can be in the moment, ruling what's best for the play experience. When they matter, sure, and that's not a problem. The DM does get to decide when there's uncertainty that calls for a die roll, though, so there's some flexibility, there. If the players /should/ succeed at something to move the story along or because it makes sense, they do. If not, they don't. If it's uncertain, you roll. The check, itself, isn't narrative power, it's delegating narrative power to the dice. The player's agency is in choosing the actions. I'm with you on this point, I think. In terms of resolving what a character can do, what needs to matter is the character, not the player. The player's agency is in deciding what the character tries to accomplish, not whether he succeeds (beyond meta-game bits like spending Inspiration or making chargen/level-up choices, of course). It's the abilities of the character and the difficulty of the action, now how well the player might be able to accomplish that action or a facsimile of it that the DM should weigh in determining success. That's why 'just RP it,' can be so un-satisfying and frustrating, because it goes from resolving the scene based on the character's abilities, to based on the player's, the character stops mattering. DM Empowerment is relative to the system, not necessarily to the players. The game is still player-focused and player-driven, it's their heroes' collective story. 5e DMs are Empowered over the system, the system has DM-dependency built-in from the most basic mechanics on. The system's only as good as the DM. The player's aren't irrelevant, the system just doesn't depend on them to remain functional. [/QUOTE]
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