Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6747733" data-attributes="member: 996">It's an understandable concern for anyone who's run afoul of the 3.x 'Diplomancer' builds, though.  That's a legitimate philosophical position, I suppose.   Obviously, 5e, to Empower DMs, has the rules treat them very differently.  Players need to follow the rules, DMs get to interpret, change, and over-rule them.That doesn't technically stop the DM from codifying the rules up-front and letting himself be bound by them.Also, the rules can be different for the DM and player, but still the same for PC and NPCs...  (though, again, 5e doesn't tend that way, with monster/NPC write-ups being different from PC).They do change attitudes in different directions as well as by different mechanisms and different mechanics.   But a key difference I think you're getting at is that the success/failure of Charm is based on the abilities of both the caster and the target.  The caster's stat & slot level determine DC, while the target's save bonus and check determine success/failure.   With intimidate, the DM might set a DC based on some judgement about the subject of the check and the situation, but there's not just some formula for it.   The DM can always rule an attempt fails without calling for a check.  Sure, it just needs to be based a mechanical resolution system based on definable abilities of the characters involved.  Part of the problem is there's no modeling of, say 'bravery' that's consistent/correlated with character types that should be exceptionally brave (like Fighters).  Instead, we have CHA checks and WIS saves and the like as the closest analogues.  So, if you depend on the mechanics, you get inappropriate results and the sense that agency has been violated.  It's not that the result of a check (be it CHA check or WIS save) determining the attitude or emotional response or even actions of a PC is a violation of agency.  If the player had the option to determine how resistant his character was to such abilities in a way that was consistent with character concept and reasonably balanced, then he'd still have agency.</blockquote>

Verification