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Persuasion - How powerful do you allow it to be?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7647092" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>A few thoughts on this (For those unfamiliar with 4e play):</p><p></p><p><strong>4E</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>1 - The reason for the sharp demarcation between combat and non-combat resolution is because 4e is a scene resolution based game that uses differing conflict resolution schemes/win:loss conditions for combat and noncombat. Other scene resolution games use a shared resolution scheme for all conflicts (and therefore don't have this demarcation). </p><p></p><p>2 - However, this can be handled in 4e (and the discretized nature can actually be a boon) by (a) making competing (if you win at x, you don't have to worry about y) or integrated (winning at x will help you win at y) win conditions while (b) deftly handling the action economy of the simultaneously occurring conflicts (such that decision-points are actually engaging rather than muted because the opportunity cost of doing one thing over the other becomes punitive).</p><p></p><p>Grooming this skill is a fairly significant part of being (or becoming) a high quality 4e GM.</p><p></p><p>3 - On retries:</p><p></p><p>4e's noncombat conflict resolution (Skill Challenge) <u><strong>requires</strong></u> the GM to dynamically change the situation after each instance of action resolution such that a new interesting, thematic decision-point and evolved fiction faces the players. </p><p></p><p>Retries, definitionally, don't exist under this paradigm.</p><p></p><p>Like above, grooming this skill is a fairly significant part of being (or becoming) a high quality 4e GM.</p><p></p><p>Because "Change the Situation" isn't fundamental to 4e combat resolution, retries for the same thing do exist (because the fictional positioning can be unchanged post action resolution).</p><p></p><p><strong>5e</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>1 - As covered above by [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], 5e leaves retries to GM discretion (as it does most everything); DMG 237 being the appropriate text.</p><p></p><p>2 - However, 5e has 4 modes of failure in action resolution (its application in any given instance also GM discretion) outlined in its text.</p><p></p><p>a - Outright failure from a 1st order, causal interpretation.</p><p></p><p>b - Fail Forward from the Basic PDF.</p><p></p><p>c - Success at a Cost (triggered by failure by 2 or less) in DMG under Resolution and Consequences.</p><p></p><p>d - Degrees of Failure (triggered by failure by 4 or less; basically Fail Forward) also in DMG under Resolution and Consequences.</p><p></p><p>There are many important distinctions here, but the overwhelmingly important one is in 4e, GMing procedures are tightly systemitized and not discretionary (the expectation to achieve "proper play" is to follow them without deviation), while 5e GMing procedures are fully discretionary (the expectation to achieve "proper play" is for the GM to follow their instincts, abiding/ignoring/changing rules at their discretion, which is supposed to be filtered through the lens of the table's conception of "fun").</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7647092, member: 6696971"] A few thoughts on this (For those unfamiliar with 4e play): [B]4E [/B]1 - The reason for the sharp demarcation between combat and non-combat resolution is because 4e is a scene resolution based game that uses differing conflict resolution schemes/win:loss conditions for combat and noncombat. Other scene resolution games use a shared resolution scheme for all conflicts (and therefore don't have this demarcation). 2 - However, this can be handled in 4e (and the discretized nature can actually be a boon) by (a) making competing (if you win at x, you don't have to worry about y) or integrated (winning at x will help you win at y) win conditions while (b) deftly handling the action economy of the simultaneously occurring conflicts (such that decision-points are actually engaging rather than muted because the opportunity cost of doing one thing over the other becomes punitive). Grooming this skill is a fairly significant part of being (or becoming) a high quality 4e GM. 3 - On retries: 4e's noncombat conflict resolution (Skill Challenge) [U][B]requires[/B][/U] the GM to dynamically change the situation after each instance of action resolution such that a new interesting, thematic decision-point and evolved fiction faces the players. Retries, definitionally, don't exist under this paradigm. Like above, grooming this skill is a fairly significant part of being (or becoming) a high quality 4e GM. Because "Change the Situation" isn't fundamental to 4e combat resolution, retries for the same thing do exist (because the fictional positioning can be unchanged post action resolution). [B]5e [/B] 1 - As covered above by [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], 5e leaves retries to GM discretion (as it does most everything); DMG 237 being the appropriate text. 2 - However, 5e has 4 modes of failure in action resolution (its application in any given instance also GM discretion) outlined in its text. a - Outright failure from a 1st order, causal interpretation. b - Fail Forward from the Basic PDF. c - Success at a Cost (triggered by failure by 2 or less) in DMG under Resolution and Consequences. d - Degrees of Failure (triggered by failure by 4 or less; basically Fail Forward) also in DMG under Resolution and Consequences. There are many important distinctions here, but the overwhelmingly important one is in 4e, GMing procedures are tightly systemitized and not discretionary (the expectation to achieve "proper play" is to follow them without deviation), while 5e GMing procedures are fully discretionary (the expectation to achieve "proper play" is for the GM to follow their instincts, abiding/ignoring/changing rules at their discretion, which is supposed to be filtered through the lens of the table's conception of "fun"). [/QUOTE]
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