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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7415252" data-attributes="member: 996">At the tail end of the playtest it was becoming clear how sub-classes &amp; such would work, and it honestly seemed like starting at 3rd should've been the default - that levels 1 &amp; 2 would've been there only for multi-classing purposes, so you could have an old-school Fighter/Cleric/MU or Fighter/MU/Thief at the start of play, while still using 3.x/5e style MCing.It's a testament to the power of ordinal numbers (and organized play) that anyone starts a 5e campaign at 1st.&nbsp; True, but it's not like PF2 is positioned to offer an alternative, their core fanbase is even more deeply committed to uneven class structures than 5e's.&nbsp; You probably wouldn't even need sub-classes, in that hypothetical case.&nbsp; Sub-classes the way Essentials used them (which was closer the way 5e uses them than 5e is to older versions of the concept) are sort of a kludge to allow you to play a selection of narrow concepts instead of just fitting yourself to the one class straight-jacket - a kludge, really.&nbsp; If 4e &amp; 5e had continued to build upon and refine 3.x-style modular MCing there'd've been no need for such pre-fab options.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7415252, member: 996"] At the tail end of the playtest it was becoming clear how sub-classes & such would work, and it honestly seemed like starting at 3rd should've been the default - that levels 1 & 2 would've been there only for multi-classing purposes, so you could have an old-school Fighter/Cleric/MU or Fighter/MU/Thief at the start of play, while still using 3.x/5e style MCing. It's a testament to the power of ordinal numbers (and organized play) that anyone starts a 5e campaign at 1st. True, but it's not like PF2 is positioned to offer an alternative, their core fanbase is even more deeply committed to uneven class structures than 5e's. You probably wouldn't even need sub-classes, in that hypothetical case. Sub-classes the way Essentials used them (which was closer the way 5e uses them than 5e is to older versions of the concept) are sort of a kludge to allow you to play a selection of narrow concepts instead of just fitting yourself to the one class straight-jacket - a kludge, really. If 4e & 5e had continued to build upon and refine 3.x-style modular MCing there'd've been no need for such pre-fab options. [/QUOTE]

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