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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8399981" data-attributes="member: 12731">No [USER=75787]@GrahamWills[/USER] that's not how math works - you can't use averages to create your worst case scenario!First off, you simply accept that two heroes must be actively working together to even reach above a 50% detection rate. What you don't appear to be cognizant of is how problematic and gamey the circumstances leading to this outcome are in every general role-playing situation outside of Paizo's very narrow-minded point of view. Basically, in Paizo's world, it's completely acceptable to call somebody an expert when that only means they can pair up with another &quot;expert&quot; and together achieve perhaps a 60% success rate. In every other perspective, a 40% failure rate is abysmally low, and something you wouldn't expect even of the clumsiest neophyte... that you still trust to take the assignment!Second, the fact that you might detect a trap half the time does not excuse or justify your experiences the other half. Not to speak of how detecting it does not mean you're automatically in the clear.Third, where your math really leads you astray. Just because three people on average only needs healing after four rounds does not mean this outcome is especially likely. And even if it is, just because some mild scenario happens to beat out other harsher scenarios by a few percentage points, and thus is the most likely one, does not mean you should then focus on that scenario over others. In all balancing, you need to calibrate for the worst cases. So why aren't you discussing worse cases?To be very clear, even if 9 traps out of ten are &quot;fine&quot;, if the tenth one kills a character, then no, traps aren't &quot;fine&quot;. (And before you focus on that scenario, let's not forget how this just obscures the real charge against the PF2 trap implementation: &quot;much ado about nothing&quot;)I will just skip the section where you discuss how you beat a trap to pulp, since we all know that if it bleeds you can kill it, and that by far the most incongruous hazards are the ones you can't damage (basically since the game never bothers to tell you how you explain the difference to your players).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8399981, member: 12731"] No [USER=75787]@GrahamWills[/USER] that's not how math works - you can't use averages to create your worst case scenario! First off, you simply accept that two heroes must be actively working together to even reach above a 50% detection rate. What you don't appear to be cognizant of is how problematic and gamey the circumstances leading to this outcome are in every general role-playing situation outside of Paizo's very narrow-minded point of view. Basically, in Paizo's world, it's completely acceptable to call somebody an expert when that only means they can pair up with another "expert" and together achieve perhaps a 60% success rate. In every other perspective, a 40% failure rate is abysmally low, and something you wouldn't expect even of the clumsiest neophyte... that you still trust to take the assignment! Second, the fact that you might detect a trap half the time does not excuse or justify your experiences the other half. Not to speak of how detecting it does not mean you're automatically in the clear. Third, where your math really leads you astray. Just because three people on average only needs healing after four rounds does not mean this outcome is especially likely. And even if it is, just because some mild scenario happens to beat out other harsher scenarios by a few percentage points, and thus is the most likely one, does not mean you should then focus on that scenario over others. In all balancing, you need to calibrate for the worst cases. So why aren't you discussing worse cases? To be very clear, even if 9 traps out of ten are "fine", if the tenth one kills a character, then no, traps aren't "fine". (And before you focus on that scenario, let's not forget how this just obscures the real charge against the PF2 trap implementation: "much ado about nothing") I will just skip the section where you discuss how you beat a trap to pulp, since we all know that if it bleeds you can kill it, and that by far the most incongruous hazards are the ones you can't damage (basically since the game never bothers to tell you how you explain the difference to your players). [/QUOTE]

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