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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8235504" data-attributes="member: 87792">In the example in question how? All 4e rogues are sneaky - they are all dex primary with stealth trained. Also there's a significant incentive to pick a tertiary stat as your saves are on three stats. If you mean a thuggy rogue or a charming rogue you don't even have to choose between them in 4e; you have enough stat points for 14s in both starting stats (and an 18 in dex) and athletics, intimidate, and bluff all trained. It does feel very 3.5 to be forced to make those trade-offs to me however. Where you needed separate skills for hide and move silently, separate skills for open lock, disable device, and sleight of hand, and separate skills for climb, jump, and swim. PF1 improved a bit on this but not as much as 4e. And one of the few ways PF2e feels like 4e to me is that they've both trimmed the skill list to 17 skills, allowing more than token breadth in what characters are competent at.</blockquote>