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<blockquote data-quote="77IM" data-source="post: 6490933" data-attributes="member: 12377">Ah, did you think I was suggesting NOT to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check? I never said not to make the ability check called for by the spell.That's what the second half of the sentence says, right? &quot;...with an Intelligence [Investigation] check against your spell save DC.&quot; I never said to skip that check. Was that ever in dispute?I think we are disputing the meaning of &quot;examine&quot; which is in the first half of the sentence, which was part of what I quoted: &quot;The target can use its action to examine the phantasm...&quot;I guess the way I play, is what some people call &quot;leading with the fiction.&quot; Say what your character is doing in game-world-terms (e.g. &quot;I'm smothering the flames with my cloak to extinguish them&quot;) and then the DM, with input from the players, decides how to resolve that mechanically. In some cases, like attack rolls, the situation and mechanics are really clearly defined so there's seldom any debate. (Although there could be: do you &quot;attack&quot; the flames with your cloak?)Is the term &quot;examine&quot; ever defined in D&amp;D? Do you have to look at the phantasm? What if it's dark, can you touch it and feel around? What if it's an illusory medusa so you avert your gaze: does this prevent you from examining the phantasm?Suppose a player tries to attack the phantasm. Are they taking the attack action? The phantasm isn't a creature or object, and has no AC or hit points. Is that player taking the Do Nothing action? (&quot;I cast magic missile at the darkness!&quot;)I think that what constitutes &quot;use an action to examine&quot; is up to the DM's discretion. Because I'm a lenient DM I'd assume that in the case of an illusion, attempting to do something to it could involve examining it. Maybe putting out the flames by stop-drop-and-roll doesn't count because you're not paying much attention; while pouring water on the flames implies that you are looking right at them to decide how to best pour the water... and when you notice that the water isn't working very well, you get the Intelligence (Investigation) check.I realize that I may have a looser criteria than many DMs, but, I don't think that it's outside the RAW... just on the edge. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="77IM, post: 6490933, member: 12377"] Ah, did you think I was suggesting NOT to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check? I never said not to make the ability check called for by the spell. That's what the second half of the sentence says, right? "...with an Intelligence [Investigation] check against your spell save DC." I never said to skip that check. Was that ever in dispute? I think we are disputing the meaning of "examine" which is in the first half of the sentence, which [i]was[/i] part of what I quoted: "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm..." I guess the way I play, is what some people call "leading with the fiction." Say what your character is doing in game-world-terms (e.g. "I'm smothering the flames with my cloak to extinguish them") and then the DM, with input from the players, decides how to resolve that mechanically. In some cases, like attack rolls, the situation and mechanics are really clearly defined so there's seldom any debate. (Although there could be: do you "attack" the flames with your cloak?) Is the term "examine" ever defined in D&D? Do you have to look at the phantasm? What if it's dark, can you touch it and feel around? What if it's an illusory medusa so you avert your gaze: does this prevent you from examining the phantasm? Suppose a player tries to attack the phantasm. Are they taking the attack action? The phantasm isn't a creature or object, and has no AC or hit points. Is that player taking the Do Nothing action? ("I cast [i]magic missile[/i] at the darkness!") I think that what constitutes "use an action to examine" is up to the DM's discretion. Because I'm a lenient DM I'd assume that in the case of an illusion, attempting to do something to it could involve examining it. Maybe putting out the flames by stop-drop-and-roll doesn't count because you're not paying much attention; while pouring water on the flames implies that you are looking right at them to decide how to best pour the water... and when you notice that the water isn't working very well, you get the Intelligence (Investigation) check. I realize that I may have a looser criteria than many DMs, but, I don't think that it's outside the RAW... just on the edge. ;) [/QUOTE]

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