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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mengu" data-source="post: 4752359" data-attributes="member: 65726">So, what kind of skill do you use, to make the DM attack you with other monsters to gain Censure of Retribution damage? And what kind of skill do you use to make the DM move the target willingly away from you so you can get Censure of Pursuit damage? Bluff DM? It's very difficult to benefit from the Censures, compared to any other striker bonus damage class feature, and they rarely come into play. I agree there is player skill involved to try and make the best of it, but so does playing a rogue or warlock (ranger is kind of the brainless striker, though with some brains you can also help the rest of the party while you're dishing out your damage). The odd thing is, the Pursuing Avenger is better against backline artillery and controllers, since they would be the ones most likely to willingly move away from the Avenger, but this also means they will be drawing crazy amounts of fire from multiple enemy back liners, and could really use Censure of Retribution. Another oddity is that some powers like Avenging Echo, that would really make a Pursuing Avenger's target want to get away from him, have riders that are more beneficial to the Isolating Avenger. I consider myself a fairly tactical player, but I'm being challenged figuring out ways of how I might be able to benefit from Censures. Group tactics can definitely help. A Bard/Retribution Avenger team can have some fun with Misdirected Mark on anything that's not the Avenger's Oath target. This puts the target in a place where it either has to take a -2 attack, or potentially give the avenger bonus damage if it hits (using Bond of Retribution makes it better). This sort of synergy is not unlike the synergy between a warlord and a rogue for granting flanks with wolfpack tactics, and giving the rogue extra attacks when he misses. I'm pondering if the reason why the Avenger doesn't have the explosive damage of rogues and rangers is because he has a little too much of the non-striker roles in him. An Avenger can achieve defender-like AC, has defender-like hit points, and a Pursuing Avenger can be sticky in essense by punishing an oath target that ignores him. Despite what the book says, I think the Pursuing Avenger's secondary role is defender. Also Divine Guidance gives every Avenger a leader-like encounter ability to help their allies finish off their oath target. Turning the Barbarian's Avalanche Strike from a miss to a potential hit is a pretty phenomenal leader power (this is another place where party tactics come into play, oath targets are good targets for encounter and daily powers). I any case, I think the Avenger is less of a striker than other strikers, because he does other stuff too. I definitely wouldn't want the Avenger to be the only striker in a party (some unique party compositions with lots of secondary striker roles excepted).</blockquote>

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