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<blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 7230139" data-attributes="member: 2525"><p>You really didn't. Here, I will go back through it because you seem to think you said something you didn't. Here is what you said, and I will break each part down to be really clear I didn't miss anything:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is not a refutation, it's an assertion. You make zero attempt to support your assertion. You're just claiming "If you look closely" without showing HOW they are proven to be considered equal. All you have to support your claim is what, your gut feeling? A tarot card reading? A dream you have? WHAT supports this claim other than you're personal sense for things?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A "what if" question is not helpful here. What if we were playing a different game? Then we'd be discussing those rules. But we're not. We're judging THESE rules and in this game you CAN do that and that is an important factor in determining their relative value. The game designers gave players a means of obtaining tool proficiency for almost nothing, and that is an indication the designers don't value tool proficiency equal to a thing like a skill which you cannot gain for almost nothing. We're not living in an alternate universe where tool proficiency cannot be gained by almost nothing, so there is no point in asking a "what if" question here. This is, again, not a refutation of anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What does it matter what my personal feeling is on the matter? We're discussing what value the creators put on it in the game, remember? I am not a creator of this game so what would it matter what my personal sense of the thing might be? How would my personal opinion serve you to refute my prior argument? It would not. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If skills were so easily gained that you could spend 250 gp and some downtime to gain them, then they would indeed be worth less. A lot less. And DCs would start to inflate, because everyone would eventually have all or at least most of the skills as proficient. And any feat to gain a skill would no longer have been considered for a feat. So again, it does not refute anything to pretend we're in an alternative universe where skills could be gained in the same manner as tools. All you've shown is they would be equally less in value. Which, again, refutes nothing.</p><p></p><p>So show me where you made even an attempt to refute the argument that tool proficiency is not as valued by the authors of the game as skill proficiency because tool proficiency is easily obtained for almost no opportunity cost. I'm waiting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mistwell, post: 7230139, member: 2525"] You really didn't. Here, I will go back through it because you seem to think you said something you didn't. Here is what you said, and I will break each part down to be really clear I didn't miss anything: This is not a refutation, it's an assertion. You make zero attempt to support your assertion. You're just claiming "If you look closely" without showing HOW they are proven to be considered equal. All you have to support your claim is what, your gut feeling? A tarot card reading? A dream you have? WHAT supports this claim other than you're personal sense for things? A "what if" question is not helpful here. What if we were playing a different game? Then we'd be discussing those rules. But we're not. We're judging THESE rules and in this game you CAN do that and that is an important factor in determining their relative value. The game designers gave players a means of obtaining tool proficiency for almost nothing, and that is an indication the designers don't value tool proficiency equal to a thing like a skill which you cannot gain for almost nothing. We're not living in an alternate universe where tool proficiency cannot be gained by almost nothing, so there is no point in asking a "what if" question here. This is, again, not a refutation of anything. What does it matter what my personal feeling is on the matter? We're discussing what value the creators put on it in the game, remember? I am not a creator of this game so what would it matter what my personal sense of the thing might be? How would my personal opinion serve you to refute my prior argument? It would not. If skills were so easily gained that you could spend 250 gp and some downtime to gain them, then they would indeed be worth less. A lot less. And DCs would start to inflate, because everyone would eventually have all or at least most of the skills as proficient. And any feat to gain a skill would no longer have been considered for a feat. So again, it does not refute anything to pretend we're in an alternative universe where skills could be gained in the same manner as tools. All you've shown is they would be equally less in value. Which, again, refutes nothing. So show me where you made even an attempt to refute the argument that tool proficiency is not as valued by the authors of the game as skill proficiency because tool proficiency is easily obtained for almost no opportunity cost. I'm waiting. [/QUOTE]
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