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PHB Feats taken - RESULTS
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<blockquote data-quote="ro" data-source="post: 7232454" data-attributes="member: 6890747"><p>That is a fair question. If expertise creates a problem against bounded accuracy, is it ok for the rogue or bard to have it?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. Nor does a general granting of access to expertise. The rogue's core skills are only impinged on if a player wants his character to be roguish. Even so, rogues have other class features that make them superior in these skills, even if others share expertise.</p><p></p><p>]QUOTE]Thieves Cant is a ribbon.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>Yes. It is a language, and so I give it one point from Trained.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Notice that my break down includes Extra Attack and shows Sneak Attack to be stronger at level 6.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your analysis includes specific archetype features rather than looking at base classes. Yes, certain archetypes are more damaging than others, but the others have other benefits. When comparing classes as a whole, we should reasonably assume that the archetypes are roughly balanced having features that offset each other through various parts of gameplay.</p><p></p><p>As to advantage, the rogue can easily hide and gain advantage through that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Also note that a stealthy fighter would have disadvantage from heavy armor, but with a shield would probably have an AC of 17 or 18. If the rogue took +2 Dex at 4th, he should have an AC of 16. (Studded leather is inexpensive.)</p><p></p><p>Even with your analysis, optimizing your fighter, he is only out-damaging the rogue by 4 out of 30.</p><p></p><p>Even more importantly, we are comparing fighter to rogue under the assertion that the fighter is outshining the rogue at roguish things. This implies that there is both a rogue and a fighter in the party. If there were only one, why would we care? But if both are present, then (depending on initiative order) your rogue would <em>also</em> gain advantage from his opponent being prone by Shield Master. The Fighter and the Rogue <strong>work as a team</strong>, not as adversaries.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, the rogue is still dominating checks, with a minimum roll of 10 on every check. The rogue is still the stealthiest and sneakiest, though maybe he has a teammate who can almost keep up. Now instead of scouting ahead of the party all alone, the rogue has a partner. When the partner fighter/ranger/whoever gets found out, the enemy says, "Ha! I knew there was a rogue in here!" Meanwhile, the even more stealthy real rogue stabs him in the back. Go rogues!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I included Extra Attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did not compare archetype features, only base class features. If the archetypes are unbalanced, that is a different question, and we are then comparing subclasses. Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight are fairly balanced. I don't know the others. I am not trying to optimize builds but compare base classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You point out that the Fighter could pick Shield Master or other feats. The rogue, too could pick a feat, like Sharpshooter or Magic Initiate. Or Trained. There are lots of options that a rogue can do other than trying to be just like a fighter. The rogue's Dex would match the fighters then, but he'd have new abilities to compensate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The rogue also has a background, which evens out Spy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think that allowing class to taste a little bit of flavor from each other overshadows any of them. Each is still better at its specialties, and each still has a role to play in the game. All choices have trade-offs, and no class is strictly superior to any other. Even the much maligned Ranger is great at what it does if he isn't a Beastmaster (and not completely terrible there, either), and if exploration and difficult terrain are included in an adventure. If we are comparing any class to rogue for roguish skills, the ranger rather than the fighter would be most likely to overlap.</p><p></p><p>Picking out the fighter's extra ASI assumes that the fighter is overpowered to get that ASI at all. What about the rogue, the only other class that gets bonus ASIs? Are rogues overpowered compared to everybody else?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Trained definitely broadens options, for every class, but your critique focuses on narrowing options to optimize the fighter. Yes, Trained allows fighters to gain expertise and be more roguish, but it also allows rogues to get better in armor and weapons. Looking at the classes as a whole, this feat offers something to everybody.</p><p></p><p>Trained doesn't warp the narrative, except for the worry about bounded accuracy which should already exist with rogues as it is: this can be mitigated with the most recent alteration I made, limiting the amount of expertise you can take at one time. But rogues are still rogues, and fighters are still fighters. Each class has its place.</p><p></p><p>Nor does Trained prevent rogues from shining, as they are still the best at every skill with a minimum 10 roll. If anything, it allows the Rogue to be even more phenomenal in skills at large, and to allows the <em>Ranger</em> to shine in its stealthy scouting, a core trait of the class!</p><p></p><p>It is vital to remember that each class is part of one character, but characters are on a <em>team</em>. You should be balancing your party, not competing player-to-player.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="ro, post: 7232454, member: 6890747"] That is a fair question. If expertise creates a problem against bounded accuracy, is it ok for the rogue or bard to have it? Indeed. Nor does a general granting of access to expertise. The rogue's core skills are only impinged on if a player wants his character to be roguish. Even so, rogues have other class features that make them superior in these skills, even if others share expertise. ]QUOTE]Thieves Cant is a ribbon.[/QUOTE] Yes. It is a language, and so I give it one point from Trained. Notice that my break down includes Extra Attack and shows Sneak Attack to be stronger at level 6. Your analysis includes specific archetype features rather than looking at base classes. Yes, certain archetypes are more damaging than others, but the others have other benefits. When comparing classes as a whole, we should reasonably assume that the archetypes are roughly balanced having features that offset each other through various parts of gameplay. As to advantage, the rogue can easily hide and gain advantage through that. Also note that a stealthy fighter would have disadvantage from heavy armor, but with a shield would probably have an AC of 17 or 18. If the rogue took +2 Dex at 4th, he should have an AC of 16. (Studded leather is inexpensive.) Even with your analysis, optimizing your fighter, he is only out-damaging the rogue by 4 out of 30. Even more importantly, we are comparing fighter to rogue under the assertion that the fighter is outshining the rogue at roguish things. This implies that there is both a rogue and a fighter in the party. If there were only one, why would we care? But if both are present, then (depending on initiative order) your rogue would [I]also[/I] gain advantage from his opponent being prone by Shield Master. The Fighter and the Rogue [B]work as a team[/B], not as adversaries. Meanwhile, the rogue is still dominating checks, with a minimum roll of 10 on every check. The rogue is still the stealthiest and sneakiest, though maybe he has a teammate who can almost keep up. Now instead of scouting ahead of the party all alone, the rogue has a partner. When the partner fighter/ranger/whoever gets found out, the enemy says, "Ha! I knew there was a rogue in here!" Meanwhile, the even more stealthy real rogue stabs him in the back. Go rogues! No, I included Extra Attack. I did not compare archetype features, only base class features. If the archetypes are unbalanced, that is a different question, and we are then comparing subclasses. Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight are fairly balanced. I don't know the others. I am not trying to optimize builds but compare base classes. You point out that the Fighter could pick Shield Master or other feats. The rogue, too could pick a feat, like Sharpshooter or Magic Initiate. Or Trained. There are lots of options that a rogue can do other than trying to be just like a fighter. The rogue's Dex would match the fighters then, but he'd have new abilities to compensate. The rogue also has a background, which evens out Spy. I don't think that allowing class to taste a little bit of flavor from each other overshadows any of them. Each is still better at its specialties, and each still has a role to play in the game. All choices have trade-offs, and no class is strictly superior to any other. Even the much maligned Ranger is great at what it does if he isn't a Beastmaster (and not completely terrible there, either), and if exploration and difficult terrain are included in an adventure. If we are comparing any class to rogue for roguish skills, the ranger rather than the fighter would be most likely to overlap. Picking out the fighter's extra ASI assumes that the fighter is overpowered to get that ASI at all. What about the rogue, the only other class that gets bonus ASIs? Are rogues overpowered compared to everybody else? Trained definitely broadens options, for every class, but your critique focuses on narrowing options to optimize the fighter. Yes, Trained allows fighters to gain expertise and be more roguish, but it also allows rogues to get better in armor and weapons. Looking at the classes as a whole, this feat offers something to everybody. Trained doesn't warp the narrative, except for the worry about bounded accuracy which should already exist with rogues as it is: this can be mitigated with the most recent alteration I made, limiting the amount of expertise you can take at one time. But rogues are still rogues, and fighters are still fighters. Each class has its place. Nor does Trained prevent rogues from shining, as they are still the best at every skill with a minimum 10 roll. If anything, it allows the Rogue to be even more phenomenal in skills at large, and to allows the [I]Ranger[/I] to shine in its stealthy scouting, a core trait of the class! It is vital to remember that each class is part of one character, but characters are on a [I]team[/I]. You should be balancing your party, not competing player-to-player. [/QUOTE]
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