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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BlackJaw" data-source="post: 451245" data-attributes="member: 888">One of the ideas we are currently working under is that Vehicles should work creatures/monsters in almost always... thus if something affects a vehicle it should affect vessels (IE: dragons similarly.)  Example: armor class is not modified by manuveribilty.  If we did that then dragons and griffons, etc all would no longer match their stats in the core rules.We've continued with this theory and guidline into vehicle rules.  Basicaly vessels are a "creatures" that fly.  "creature" is being used losely, and includes objects that arn't otherwise alive (IE: constructs that are not magicaly animated, but mechanicaly etc).  Vehicles are a special form of vessel that can not fly themselves (IE: they use & need pilots because they have no Dex score).  Under this theory we've simply asumed that most things work like creatures (creatures that happen to commonly have many HD, and no INT, WIS, CHA, or CON scores) in as far as saving throws and the like.  Example: Constructs generaly are immune to Fort saves unless the effect being saved for can directly target objects... like disentagrate.  Targeting that spell at a vehicle would require a Fort save based on the vehicle's HD.  For reflex saves this becomes more complicated.  Our running rules would require the vehicle generaly fails all Reflex saves (it has no Dex) or make them based off HD.  both these two options are fairly stupid.  aut-fail doesn't make sense for a vehicle becasuse alhtough it lacks a Dex score, it does move and could dodge.  Also, giving it a score based of HD doesn't work well because the save bonus goes up with vehicle HD (and therefore with vehicle size) and the result is larger vehicles dodging better.  My idea on this subject is for the vehicle to use the Pilot's Reflex save modified by either the Handling modifier (IE: how easy to fly is the vehicle) or its Turn Modifier (IE: a modifier version of the manuveribilty rating).  Keep in mind that letting the Reflex save in means people will also want to use their character's Evasion and Improved Evasion powers. (no damage on saves and half damage on failures respectively).Also we need to decide what Effects/powers/spells/feats/class features/etc a pilot has affect the vehicle as a whole.  As always, a set of simple rules is better then a blow by blow list.  I'd say Insight bonuses apply (you know where the attack will be before it's there.  Also this isn't something could enchant the vehicle to have on its own.), as would maybe Dodge bonuses (which is what the dodge feat uses, as do spells or affects that increase a character reflexes... but if we arn't letting the pilot's Dex modifier in, then why Dodge? Don't you lose dodge bonuses whenever you are denied your Dexterity modifier?  Dodge stacks with other dodge bonuses... way to easy to abuse.  On the other hand dodge bonuses would seem better if applied to the pilot instead of the vehicle itself.)One last comment on not having Pilot Dex apply to the vehicle:  this means that a pilot with a dexterity of 30 and pilot with a dexterity of 3, both in identicle vehicles, are equaly easy to hit unless they are in a complex stunt of some kind.  As far as stunts go; because you never get a penelty to armor class through the stunt, characters with bad Dexterity scores will never have that Dex penelty to their AC... even if they can't make that Stunt check.I'm wondering if we should take  tip from the core D&D and say that normaly a pilot (if he is aware of an attack) is considered to be flying to avoid being hit/targeted  (much like if your aware of an attack your considered attempting to duck out of the way) and stunts that boost armor class (like the complex stunt) are something above and beyond just nromal dodging.  In otherwords allowing Dex modifiers and Dodge bonuses to apply from the pilot to his vehicle. (including Dex Penalties and maybe even the Monk Wisdom bonus, although I technicaly think it is an unnamed bonus.).</blockquote>

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