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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Capricia" data-source="post: 6329241" data-attributes="member: 6777135">You're right, Otto's Irresistable Dance is much more effective.Gives the Fighter Disadvantage on every attack.  Assuming a dex of 14, that's +8 vs an AC of 21, hits 20% of the time.  On a hit, deal 1d8+2 damage, so the concentration check is always going to be against a DC of 10.  Our 16 con wizard can pass that 70% of the time, so it'll take an average of about 7 attacks to break the wizard's concentration, at which point he can cast it again.  Alternatively, the fighter can spend his Action trying to throw off the dance.  But since it's DC 19 against his non-proficient wis saves, even Indomitable isn't going to be much help there.All that aside, class pvp isn't really the best way to look at game balance.  More prudent to ask is which is more effective against a goblin horde? 8 attacks or a meteor swarm? Which is more effective against a Balor? 8 attacks or a crippling debuff? Which is more effective at getting the party out of the imminently exploding volcano? 8 attacks or teleport? Which is more effective at communicating with the mysterious fae race you just encountered? 8 attacks or comprehend languages? Which is more effective at unlocking the ancient and sealed chest of ultimate power which is forged from unbreakablinium? 8 attacks or Knock?And so on.</blockquote>