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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 6329417" data-attributes="member: 5889">Edit: The original posting had a big math error, the damage bonus from strength wasn't factored in! That has been corrected.So people wanted to know what the affect of shield and a better dex would have on the results. Lets take a look.My new wizard, with a Dex of 16, Mage Armor, and Shield...has an AC of 21. Further, the fighter will win the shove contest 80.5% of the time. (Note I found a slight flaw in the original post, the shove should have 83.5%...it ultimately doesn't affect the conclusion).So with this factored in:DPR (4 attacks): 31DPR (shove + 3): 33.0488625DPR (8 attacks): 62DPR (shove + 7): 77.1140125Conclusion: So now, shove is actually more useful whether you are using 4 attacks or your action surge.Oh, and just because we keep doing a fighter vs wizard comparison...assuming shield was the wizard's at will spell, how long would it take the fighter to take care of business?Wizard HP (18 con): 1524 attacks: 4.9 rounds to kill wizardShove + 3: 4.64 attacks (2 rounds of action surge): 2.9Shove +3 (2 rounds of Shove +7): 1.97Conclusion: When using action surge, the shove actually makes a big big difference, it can in fact drop the fight by an entire round!</blockquote>