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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Derrick Reeves" data-source="post: 948608" data-attributes="member: 8427">FreeTheSlaves, you could have just used the NPC tables in the DMG.  I'll present a similar analysis to yours based on these.  I've chosen levels to representAt first level, a spellcaster will have 15 in their spellcasting ability (1).  This sets the save DC of their 1st-level spells at 13.  Glancing over the tables, the range of bad saves goes from -1 to +2 - 35-50% chance.  Good saves are +3 or +4, which gives a 55-60% chance to save. (2)At sixth level, a spellcaster will have 16 in their spellcasting ability, and may have a +2 item (from 13k gold in equipment), setting the save DC of their 3rd-level spells at 17.  Bad saves at this level are +2 to +5, presenting a 30-45% chance to save.  Good saves tend to be in the +6 to +8 range, with 50-60% chances for succesful saves. (3)At twelfth level, a spellcaster will have 18 in their spellcasting ability, and can count on a +4 item (from 88k gold in equipment),setting the save DC of their 6th-level spells at 22.  Bad saves at this level are +4 to +8, presenting a 15-35% chance to save.  Good saves are +9 to +12 (4), presenting a 40-55% chance for success. (5)At eighteenth level, a spellcaster will have 19 in their spellcasting ability, can count on a +6 item (from 440k gold in equipment), and will probably have acquired a +1 inherent bonus, setting the save DC of their 9th level spells at 27.  Bad saves at this level are +6 to +13, presenting a 5-35% chance for success.  Good saves are +12 to +16 (6), with 30-50% chances for a successful save. (7)The old Spell Focus was pretty good - probably too good - when you look over these numbers.  With Greater Spell Focus, saving throws went from Russian Roulette to being shot in the face <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />.  After having done this analysis, I now think that the new revisions are just fine.  The added DC will still be meaningful in the same way that Weapon Focus is, without swamping even good saving throw bonuses.(1)  More if you're not playing standard array.  With points-based, this tends to be 16, dice-built spellcaster (IME) tend towards 17-18.  Obviously, this higher starting level will increase later totals.  OTOH, the DM should take higher party stats into account when creating challenges, so this should cancel out.(2)  Typical 1st level challenges: Goblins and Orcs are actually a bit worse off.  (Hobgoblins, of course, have fine saves <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />)  Ghouls have very good Will saves, though this doesn't seem to be very important given the available spells.  The Ogre's massive fortitude save is balanced out by weak saves within the expected range.(3)  Typical 6th level challenges:  Trolls have fantastic fortitude saves (though everyone should know this).  Their weak saves are in the expected range.  Wyverns are tough, as all their saves are good (though a low AC will allow the fighters to carry the load).  The Hellcat, likewise, has all good saves, and SR (though 16 isn't going to be a big ask as this level).(4)  Actually, the NPC Rogue has a Reflex save of +17, having taken Lightning Reflexes, so he'll save 90% of the time (with Evasion)!(5)  Typical 12th level challenges:  The Devourer's saves are in the bottom end of the expected range, thankfully!  The Kraken, on the other hand, has HUGE saves - its poor saves are about as good as strong saves for an NPC of the same CR. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> Adult Blue Dragons are no slouches either.(6)  Ok, there's some really high-end saves up here that I didn't mention - the Rogue is still bouncing like a jumping jack, and you already knew not to try Heightened Dominate Person on the high priest, right? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (7)  Balors and Mariliths will have a hard time saving against anything at this level.  The latter's spell resistance will make a difference, though.  Dragons are heavily spell resistant AND have good saves, though.  The big T saves against pretty much everything, has heaps of SR and mad immunities. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /></blockquote>

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