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Play report (Extinction Curse spoilers)
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7961765" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Revisiting this to report that the tables have turned. Oh how they have turned.</p><p></p><p>Now the party is 5th level, and all three martials have Striking runes. That means they make mincemeat of any lower-leveled foe.</p><p></p><p>Levelling up from 4th to 5th level feels more like two or even three steps than just one, TBH.</p><p></p><p>This also goes for monsters. Level 6 or 7 monsters are still scary, so it's not like I'm complaining.</p><p></p><p>I'm basically just saying level 5 is a HUGE milestone that feels like a big deal.</p><p></p><p>(For martials. That the Wizard is given a 6d6 Fireball is just sad in comparison)</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>As for the actual adventure (remember this is a thread spoiling Extinction Curse) they've cleaned out much of the map of chapter 1, book 2 called "Dangerous Plot".</p><p></p><p>That despite me significantly beefing up the opposition. Now why would I do that?</p><p></p><p>I (now) realize the writers probably made most encounters "moderate" for a specific reason: to make players feel like they've leveled out of the apprentice levels, and to make them feel like awesome heroes that can take on an almost endless stream of level 3 or 4 critters.</p><p></p><p>I did not accomplish that. The reason is that I wanted to stretch out the chapter over several days, to give time for social events to progress evenly throughout the week leading up to their circus performance. (Social events of my own making, that is, inspired by how the succubi Balenni managed to survive her encounter with the heroes in the last chapter)</p><p></p><p>However, even though I made the monsters more dangerous and plentiful, they've still mopped up everything in the second day.</p><p></p><p>The harsh truth is that thanks to the Medicine skill Pathfinder 2 almost entirely abandons the attrition model. You basically never need more than an hour's rest to replenish everybody's hit points to full once you reach level 5 and take the optimal feats. The Cleric can then focus almost entirely on in-combat healing (a role that fell by the wayside in 5E).</p><p></p><p>Just about the only reason why a party of heroes would ever take a night's rest (instead of just pressing on) is the presence of casters in the party. That is: the way casters run out of spells means martials will have to go much slower than they are capable of simply because the game becomes much more fun for a caster if loaded up on spells. (We're still at a level low enough that the offensive capabilities of casters are meagre enough to simply not be necessary)</p><p></p><p>So even though I added a Shambler and a pair of Harpies and a Hydra to the map, and made Kalkek's wolves five Dire Wolves instead of regular ones, and let the Will o Wisps be regular level 7 critters, that still didn't slow down the heroes - now it's lunch time the second day and only the Harpies remain. And as I said, the only reason that not everything died on the first day was because the three martials decided it was more fun for the casters to have spells to play with.</p><p></p><p>Now you might think it was a cakewalk. It definitely wasn't. The first time the heroes were ambushed by the Will o Wisps while caught in quicksand they were clobbered and had to flee. The Black Pudding alone almost killed them (and did yank one hero point* from the Fighter). Kalkek attacked even though the party was still fighting four Dire Wolves. On their second encounter with the Will o Wisps, they were ambushed by the Hydra. (This encounter easily qualifies as "Extreme" by Paizo's guidelines. That didn't prevent the heroes from comfortably winning - thanks to Acid Splash in fact) Each level 6 monster has the capacity to take a character from full hp to zero in a single round, so the Cleric was essential.</p><p></p><p>But this didn't slow them down, is my point. Even a fight where three heroes are downed and brought back up again (by Heal or Battle Medicine) doesn't slow down the party more than 20-60 minutes, then they're fully healed and ready for more.</p><p></p><p>Basically, you cannot rely on combats to create a narrative take plays out over days. You need specific adventure support. (Something like the heroes not becoming aware of the next threat until the day after, or a map requiring significant travel from encounter to encounter)</p><p></p><p>So if given the chance to redo this chapter, I would probably have kept the monsters as-is to give the heroes their sense of awesomesauce, and simply retooled my progression of "succubi hijinks" to account for the fact that the adventure as written definitely does not need two weeks. More like a single afternoon.</p><p></p><p>This is an observation, not a complaint, by the way. It's not good or bad, it simply is.</p><p></p><p>Zapp</p><p></p><p>*) <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/variant-hero-points.669774/" target="_blank">Think Warhammer fate points, not CRB hero points.</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7961765, member: 12731"] Revisiting this to report that the tables have turned. Oh how they have turned. Now the party is 5th level, and all three martials have Striking runes. That means they make mincemeat of any lower-leveled foe. Levelling up from 4th to 5th level feels more like two or even three steps than just one, TBH. This also goes for monsters. Level 6 or 7 monsters are still scary, so it's not like I'm complaining. I'm basically just saying level 5 is a HUGE milestone that feels like a big deal. (For martials. That the Wizard is given a 6d6 Fireball is just sad in comparison) --- As for the actual adventure (remember this is a thread spoiling Extinction Curse) they've cleaned out much of the map of chapter 1, book 2 called "Dangerous Plot". That despite me significantly beefing up the opposition. Now why would I do that? I (now) realize the writers probably made most encounters "moderate" for a specific reason: to make players feel like they've leveled out of the apprentice levels, and to make them feel like awesome heroes that can take on an almost endless stream of level 3 or 4 critters. I did not accomplish that. The reason is that I wanted to stretch out the chapter over several days, to give time for social events to progress evenly throughout the week leading up to their circus performance. (Social events of my own making, that is, inspired by how the succubi Balenni managed to survive her encounter with the heroes in the last chapter) However, even though I made the monsters more dangerous and plentiful, they've still mopped up everything in the second day. The harsh truth is that thanks to the Medicine skill Pathfinder 2 almost entirely abandons the attrition model. You basically never need more than an hour's rest to replenish everybody's hit points to full once you reach level 5 and take the optimal feats. The Cleric can then focus almost entirely on in-combat healing (a role that fell by the wayside in 5E). Just about the only reason why a party of heroes would ever take a night's rest (instead of just pressing on) is the presence of casters in the party. That is: the way casters run out of spells means martials will have to go much slower than they are capable of simply because the game becomes much more fun for a caster if loaded up on spells. (We're still at a level low enough that the offensive capabilities of casters are meagre enough to simply not be necessary) So even though I added a Shambler and a pair of Harpies and a Hydra to the map, and made Kalkek's wolves five Dire Wolves instead of regular ones, and let the Will o Wisps be regular level 7 critters, that still didn't slow down the heroes - now it's lunch time the second day and only the Harpies remain. And as I said, the only reason that not everything died on the first day was because the three martials decided it was more fun for the casters to have spells to play with. Now you might think it was a cakewalk. It definitely wasn't. The first time the heroes were ambushed by the Will o Wisps while caught in quicksand they were clobbered and had to flee. The Black Pudding alone almost killed them (and did yank one hero point* from the Fighter). Kalkek attacked even though the party was still fighting four Dire Wolves. On their second encounter with the Will o Wisps, they were ambushed by the Hydra. (This encounter easily qualifies as "Extreme" by Paizo's guidelines. That didn't prevent the heroes from comfortably winning - thanks to Acid Splash in fact) Each level 6 monster has the capacity to take a character from full hp to zero in a single round, so the Cleric was essential. But this didn't slow them down, is my point. Even a fight where three heroes are downed and brought back up again (by Heal or Battle Medicine) doesn't slow down the party more than 20-60 minutes, then they're fully healed and ready for more. Basically, you cannot rely on combats to create a narrative take plays out over days. You need specific adventure support. (Something like the heroes not becoming aware of the next threat until the day after, or a map requiring significant travel from encounter to encounter) So if given the chance to redo this chapter, I would probably have kept the monsters as-is to give the heroes their sense of awesomesauce, and simply retooled my progression of "succubi hijinks" to account for the fact that the adventure as written definitely does not need two weeks. More like a single afternoon. This is an observation, not a complaint, by the way. It's not good or bad, it simply is. Zapp *) [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/variant-hero-points.669774/']Think Warhammer fate points, not CRB hero points.[/URL] [/QUOTE]
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