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Play report (Extinction Curse spoilers)
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7997273" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>I would phrase the characterization a tad differently... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>In 3E/PF1 there is no balance. It's the entitled munchkin's paradise. It is also the harried DM's worst nightmare.</p><p></p><p>In other to challenge the players you have zero shortcuts. You must spend hours building NPCs and perfecting their strategies, or you will get steamrolled by the players (4 brains vs 1 brain).</p><p></p><p>All for what? So the players can loot the monsters (killing the monsters you spent hours on in seconds) and become even more unbalancingly over-powerful. Thus begins a new cycle...</p><p></p><p></p><p>5E did miracles to the brand of D&D. (4E might or might not do some of these things too; since it threw out the baby with the bathwater I care little for it)</p><p></p><p>First and foremost, it freed DMs from having to play by the PC building rules. (PF2 wisely does this too) No longer is a monster required to have a specific class level or feat in order to pull of some ability. It needn't have any lootable items - it can simply have the stats it needs to do its job (challenging and amusing the players).</p><p></p><p>Secondly - and this is seldom appreciated enough - it revamps the casting rules in surprisingly insightful ways. 5E casting is seriously and meaningfully reined in compared to d20, but casters and spells still feel awesome (which I'm not sure I can say of PF2, though its early days), and of course, the less is said about the 4E AEDU nonsense the better. Every detail about the d20 spellcasting model has been examined. There are lots and lots of changes that most players probably aren't consciously aware of even after years of playing.</p><p></p><p>Sure 5E screams for an "advanced" module to make high-level play more interesting and complex, but that does not take away the most basic fact: I am convinced a lot of 5E's success comes from the incredible feat of pulling off both these accomplishments, all while retaining the "feel" of D&D: build choices and items are allowed to be awesome (sadly much unlike PF2 which offers some truly heinous item mechanics)</p><p></p><p>Of course, the biggest factor in 5E's success is its simplicity - with a lot of D&D crud getting swept under the rug; advantage, and the like. (Too much IMHO; such as checks on ranged damage, low-light vision, and advantage-for-everything.) I and Celtavian might be prepared for the niggly clutter of PF2, but I am convinced Paizo went the wrong way if they wanted a repeat of their huge PF1 success. In the post-5E era, such complexity simply doesn't cut it anymore.</p><p></p><p>PF2 comes across as an impressive game - if viewed as a post 4E-game. Sadly we live in a post-5E game (and did so during the entire PF2 development time, he added pointedly), and 5E is undoubtedly, unquestionably, indubitably even, the better game for the vast majority of players (me and Celt not included). In 2019 PF2 comes across as shockingly clueless about what makes a game successful - it seems to have learned none of the lessons 5E teach.</p><p></p><p>I remain convinced that Paizo could only have retained their greatness as a satellite around the 500 pound gorilla of D&D, that their strive for independence is just corporate ego nonsense, and that every single "high fantasy" publisher that moves outside D&Ds orbit ends up as an obscure little-known item of curio.</p><p></p><p>I also remain convinced that if Paizo instead published an "Advanced Manual (to the world's greatest roleplaying game)" that would not only have been great for me personally, but for Paizo Corp too. A rpg product that transforms 5E into a deeper, more complex game, with (much) more interesting monsters, with fixed subclasses and spells; yet retains full compatibility: meaning a player could still use a PHB class, even if it comes across as slighly less powerful (much like playing a Champion in a game with Battle Masters and Eldritch Knights) while a DM could still run a WotC adventure, possibly with monster stats switched out for the "advanced" versions.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I know Paizo feels burned by WotCs actions (Dragon magazine; 4E OGL) but the bitter truth is they can either play in WotC's garden or they can play with the ghosts (Castles & Crusades, 13th Age, Fantasy Age, HARP, Labyrinth Lord, Numenera, Runequest, Palladium, SoDM, Torchbearer, Tunnels & Trolls, 5 Torches Deep, or the literally other hundreds of D&D pretender games that some might play but none spend serious money on).</p><p></p><p>Now back to your regular Extinction Curse play report... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7997273, member: 12731"] I would phrase the characterization a tad differently... ;) In 3E/PF1 there is no balance. It's the entitled munchkin's paradise. It is also the harried DM's worst nightmare. In other to challenge the players you have zero shortcuts. You must spend hours building NPCs and perfecting their strategies, or you will get steamrolled by the players (4 brains vs 1 brain). All for what? So the players can loot the monsters (killing the monsters you spent hours on in seconds) and become even more unbalancingly over-powerful. Thus begins a new cycle... 5E did miracles to the brand of D&D. (4E might or might not do some of these things too; since it threw out the baby with the bathwater I care little for it) First and foremost, it freed DMs from having to play by the PC building rules. (PF2 wisely does this too) No longer is a monster required to have a specific class level or feat in order to pull of some ability. It needn't have any lootable items - it can simply have the stats it needs to do its job (challenging and amusing the players). Secondly - and this is seldom appreciated enough - it revamps the casting rules in surprisingly insightful ways. 5E casting is seriously and meaningfully reined in compared to d20, but casters and spells still feel awesome (which I'm not sure I can say of PF2, though its early days), and of course, the less is said about the 4E AEDU nonsense the better. Every detail about the d20 spellcasting model has been examined. There are lots and lots of changes that most players probably aren't consciously aware of even after years of playing. Sure 5E screams for an "advanced" module to make high-level play more interesting and complex, but that does not take away the most basic fact: I am convinced a lot of 5E's success comes from the incredible feat of pulling off both these accomplishments, all while retaining the "feel" of D&D: build choices and items are allowed to be awesome (sadly much unlike PF2 which offers some truly heinous item mechanics) Of course, the biggest factor in 5E's success is its simplicity - with a lot of D&D crud getting swept under the rug; advantage, and the like. (Too much IMHO; such as checks on ranged damage, low-light vision, and advantage-for-everything.) I and Celtavian might be prepared for the niggly clutter of PF2, but I am convinced Paizo went the wrong way if they wanted a repeat of their huge PF1 success. In the post-5E era, such complexity simply doesn't cut it anymore. PF2 comes across as an impressive game - if viewed as a post 4E-game. Sadly we live in a post-5E game (and did so during the entire PF2 development time, he added pointedly), and 5E is undoubtedly, unquestionably, indubitably even, the better game for the vast majority of players (me and Celt not included). In 2019 PF2 comes across as shockingly clueless about what makes a game successful - it seems to have learned none of the lessons 5E teach. I remain convinced that Paizo could only have retained their greatness as a satellite around the 500 pound gorilla of D&D, that their strive for independence is just corporate ego nonsense, and that every single "high fantasy" publisher that moves outside D&Ds orbit ends up as an obscure little-known item of curio. I also remain convinced that if Paizo instead published an "Advanced Manual (to the world's greatest roleplaying game)" that would not only have been great for me personally, but for Paizo Corp too. A rpg product that transforms 5E into a deeper, more complex game, with (much) more interesting monsters, with fixed subclasses and spells; yet retains full compatibility: meaning a player could still use a PHB class, even if it comes across as slighly less powerful (much like playing a Champion in a game with Battle Masters and Eldritch Knights) while a DM could still run a WotC adventure, possibly with monster stats switched out for the "advanced" versions. Yes, I know Paizo feels burned by WotCs actions (Dragon magazine; 4E OGL) but the bitter truth is they can either play in WotC's garden or they can play with the ghosts (Castles & Crusades, 13th Age, Fantasy Age, HARP, Labyrinth Lord, Numenera, Runequest, Palladium, SoDM, Torchbearer, Tunnels & Trolls, 5 Torches Deep, or the literally other hundreds of D&D pretender games that some might play but none spend serious money on). Now back to your regular Extinction Curse play report... ;) [/QUOTE]
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