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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8354285" data-attributes="member: 42582">This thread is a sequel to <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/who-authors-the-shared-fiction-in-rpging.681491/#post-8347361" target="_blank">Who authors the shared fiction in RPGing?</a> It deals with matters that have come up in the same of the same threads that prompted that one, or older but relevant threads like <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/beginning-to-doubt-that-rpg-play-can-be-substantively-character-driven.670163/" target="_blank">Beginning to Doubt That RPG Play Can Be Substantively "Character-Driven"</a>.I think that it is possible for the plot in RPGing to be extensively player-driven/player-authored.In referring to plot I'm following the usage on <a href="http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=20791.0" target="_blank">this old thread from another site</a>, which uses the following labels:Content - also backstory, ie established facts/events, major and minor, in the setting and situation; Situation or scene - ie the context in which the PCs (and, thereby, the players) are called upon to declare actions; Narration - how a scene unfolds, including what happens when players have their PCs do things; Plot - moments of revelation and/or development in play, where the "drama" of play is located.These four things are related to one another - framing a scene involves presenting some content (maybe a place, maybe some NPCs, maybe an event); resolving a scene obviously involves narration; and moments of plot are the upshot of content, situation and/or narration: a moment of plot might itself be part of framing a scene (eg "You enter the king's chamber and see a masked assassin about to stab him with a dagger!") or might be narrated as a consequence of an action (eg "You pull off the assassin's mask - it's the chamberlain!") or might be a mere presentation of content that is neither situation nor narration (eg "While you rest up having returned from your mission, you hear news in the streets - the chamberlain has been apprehended assassinating the king.")What counts as plot is not "objective" or "neutral" - it depends upon what is taken as interesting or relevant in the play of the game. Hence why my example in the previous paragraph is of a revelation about an assassination rather than, say, a revelation about a new ant infestation in the innkeeper's meat safe. Maybe in a very insect- or food-oriented game that could also count as an example of plot.For plot to be meaningfully player-authored, the player has to be contributing to the content that is revealed or developed, and to what makes it meaningful/interesting/relevant. This means that if the GM is the one who is narrating the revelation, s/he has to be drawing on elements that the player has brought into play and/or made salient. One way this can happen is if the player has an influence over scene-framing, and hence is able to bring those salient elements into play. But that is not enough: s/he also has to be able to influence what is then revealed, or how those elements develop, via action declaration. Otherwise it will be a GM-authored moment of plot.If the player is working with GM-authored elements of content (eg GM-established places, GM-established NPCs, etc), player authorship of plot is still possible, provided that the player is the one who invests those elements with meaning, and via action declaration is able to shape the revelation or development.Conversely, what marks a bit of plot as GM-authored is if revelation or development is established by the GM (eg the GM is narrating consequences of action declarations, and that narration isn't reinforcing some element of content or meaning that the player has brought to the game). This can become even clearer if the content (places, NPCs, etc) that is the subject-matter of the revelation or development is GM-established.Here is an account of five sessions (about 10 hours) of play, with the moments of player-authorship of plot called out. The system is Burning Wheel. I'm the player; my friend is the GM. I've sblocked for length.[spoiler]* First, I build the PCs - Thurgon, a knight of a holy military order (the Knights of the Iron Tower), and his sorcerer sidekick Aramina. The GM tells me that we're starting play on the Pomarj-Ulek border - that's a bit warmer than I had expected (in my initial conception Thurgon is rather Germanic) but I roll with it. The backstory I've written for Thurgon includes that "Thurgon left the Iron Tower only weeks ago. The Knight Commander of the order sent him forth into the wilderness. He does not know why." And also that Thurgon has not set foot there in Auxol, his ancestral estate, for over 5 years, since he left to take service with the Iron Tower.* Now there are some ambiguities in Thurgon's background as represented by some build elements: there is an Affiliation with the Order of the Iron Tower; and also a reputation as The Last Knight of the Iron Tower. So it's not clear if the Tower has fallen, or is falling. The GM doesn't push for certainty in that respect. Instead, he starts fairly low-key and as one might expect: we (that is, Aramina and Thurgon) are travelling along the river frontier (between the settled lands of Ulek and the wilder lands of the forest and the Pomarj), where there are old forts of the order (now abandoned) and also abandoned settlements.* At one of the homestead, I declared a couple of checks: a Homestead-wise check (untrained) to learn more about the circumstances of abandonment of this particular ruined homestead, which succeeded, and hence (in this case) extracted some more narration of backstory from the GM; and then a Scavenging check, looking for the gold that the homesteaders would have left behind in their panic and which the orcs would have been too lazy to find.  Unfortunately this second check failed, which meant that Orcs from a raiding party had virtually infiltrated the homestead before I noticed them. Here we have an attempt at a player-authored plot moment, but the failure tilts the balance of narrational and hence situational authority back to the GM. The fight with the Orcs engaged Beliefs and Instincts, so there were local moments that expressed Thurgon's character in this bigger GM-established context.* The Orcs (as the GM narrated things) were part of a larger raiding party, with mumakil. I think the GM was hoping I might chase the mumakil, but I have no animal handling, animal lore etc and so the mumakil remained nothing but mere colour. The larger raiding party was chased off by a force of Elves, again narrated by the GM. I wasn't surprised that Elves should show up - my GM loves Elves! I tried an untrained Heraldry check to recognise the Elves' arms, and failed - so the Elven leader was not too taken by me! In this there was cross-narration by me and the GM, but it ran in the same direction: as I was saying (in character) that I don't recognise the Elven leader's arms and wondered who he was, he (spoken by the GM) was telling me that he didn't like my somewhat discourteous look. I don't know what, if anything, the GM had in mind for the Elves, but one of Thurgon's Beliefs was (at that time) that fame and infamy shall no longer befall my ancestral estate. So I invited the Elf to travel with his soldiers south to Auxol, where we might host them. The GM had the Elf try and blow me off, but I was serious about this and so called for a Duel of Wits. Unfortunately my dice pool was very weak compared to the Elf's (6 Will dice being used for untrained Persuasion, so slightly weaker than 3 Persuasion dice vs 7 Will dice and 6 Persuasion dice) and so despite my attempt as a player to do some clever scripting I was rebuffed by the Elf without getting even a compromise. Here we have a player-authored plot moment. Although it ended in failure for the PC, it was all about what I as a player had brought into the situation. I'm pretty sure the GM hadn't anticipated this. So I don't know what he anticipated for the Elves' departure, but in the game it followed my failure to persuade them to join me.* In the course of discussion the Elf did mention that one Orc - who may or may not have fallen in battle, he wasn't sure - was wearing a shield bearing the crest of the Iron Tower. I think the GM was expecting me to pursue this Orc, but I didn't, for two reasons: (i) having been rebuffed by the elven leader, I wanted to head off in a different direction, and (ii) I was a bit worried that Aramina is too squishy for hunting Orcs!, and Thurgon's pretty vulnerable too to being swarmed. So Thurgon and Aramina road off to the northwest, following the river.* The GM wanted to skip a few days, but I insisted on playing out the first evening, as Thurgon and Aramina debated what to do. Aramina - being learned in Great Masters-wise, believed that the abandoned tower of Evard the Black lay somewhere in the forest on the north side of the river (a successful check, initiated by me as her player), and wanted to check it out (and find spellbooks!). Thurgon persuaded her that they could not do such a thing unless (i) she fixed his breastplate, and (ii) they found some information in the abandoned fortresses of his order which would indicate that the tower was, at least, superficially safe to seek out (eg not an orc fortress a la Angmar/Dol Guldur). My notes are a little incomplete here, but I think we resolved this as a Duel of Wits with me scripting for Thurgon and the GM for Aramina. This was a player-authored plot moment.* We now did the travel-for-a-few-days montage and the GM told us we found an abandoned fortress of the Iron Tower. This situation was framed by the GM, and he introduced a lot of content, some of it in response to multiple failed checks on my part and some as part of his ongoing framing. But the key event was when Thurgon and Aramina found themselves magically trapped in a crypt of dead knights of the Order, one of whom had gone made and lingered on as a skeleton. The GM kept trying to goad Thurgon into a fight with this skeleton, but I refused on the grounds that I (which is to say, Thurgon) would not turn on one of my Order, even a twisted skeleton. A Duel of Wits was lost by Thurgon, and an initial prayer to reverse that outcome failed too. But then Thurgon and Aramina found some books, including a prayer book (I think this must have been a Scavenging check) and guided by the book Thurgon performed rites for the dead and then was able to succeed on a prayer of Purification to free the skeleton from its curse. And so we were able to leave. This was a GM-framed situation, with a lot of GM-authored content, but the crucial plot moment - a victory of peace and prayer, rather than arms - was player-driven. We also had some clues about a magical fiery assault on the fortress - this was GM-authored, responding to some my failed checks.* We then travelled to Evard's Tower. A successful Circles check for Thurgon enabled us to meet Friedrich, a former knight of the Order, who took us down the river on his raft to where Evard's Tower is. This was all player-authored, although not itself a major plot moment.* The GM also introduced another NPC around this point, travelling on the raft too. This NPC was an echo back to a NPC from another campaign of ours. The GM clearly liked this idea (he'd hinted at something similar with the Elves) but I wasn't interested. The GM took the hint and the NPC left the scene in fairly short order. At Evard's Tower we encountered a demon - this was the GM's introduction of a content into a situation that was otherwise player-established (ie the presence of the Tower). The demon was looking for information and compromises, as the GM had it ask questions and hint at things that pertained to the information that we had learned in the abandoned fortress, but my approach here was the opposite of what it had been there: Thurgon would not compromise with a demon, and fought it to a standstill (its summoning ended, and it departed the scene). As a result the GM decided that Thurgon had gained a new Reputation, and Infamous Reputation among demons as an Intransigent Demon Foe. This was a plot-moment which was instigated by the GM - a demon at the tower - but which was player-driven. And the GM recognised this with the decision about the Reputation.* Aramina had tried to call down a Rain of Fire on the demon but failed and Taxed herself into unconsciousness. Thurgon made sure she was safe, and then explored the Tower while she was unconscious. He found letters that implied that Evard was the father of his mother (with whom he has a Relationship from PC build; and who, as per the backstory I wrote, still lives in Auxol). I can't now remember whether this was a narration of failure (seems more likely) or success, but it was driven by a Scavenging check. Thurgon burned the letters in the campfire - this was in part because he has an Instinct When camping, always ensure that the campfire is burning. This was a plot-moment that was player-authored. The GM's role was one of mediation: wending together the Thurgon-Auxol/family and Aramina-Evard/spellbook strands, using the letters as the device for that.* Once Aramina regained consciousness, a series of misadventures flowing from the campfire led to the Tower catching fire. Thurgon wasn't able to put out the fire; but the burning down of the Tower did reveal its basement. This was clear GM situational authority, retaking the "initiative" on the back of a sequence (five, I think) of failed checks. In the basement we found fairly rough iron - Orc work, it seemed, perhaps to build something - and some sort of magical circle. Thurgon was able to identify it as a teleportation circle (my successful check, but from memory the GM's content). Thurgon then used his Ritual skill to try and open it, conjecturing that it led to Auxol or the vicinity - how else could his mother have sent letters to Evard when she was young? But that check failed, and so the GM explained that it led to an (unfamiliar) cave. Aramina was able to tell (by reading the symbols of the circle) that it travelled 100 miles east. The was eager for us to go through, and narrated the circle as flickering as if the portal was about to close. But I wanted us to go and get our gear that was still upstairs, and so made another check for Aramina to alter the symbols so as to hold the portal open longer. This failed, and so the portal collapsed shut. And further misadventure (consequent on a failed Scavenging check to try and find coin in the basement) led to the basement also collapsing when Thurgon shoved something that had already been damaged by the fire. There are two real plot-moments here - the circle being opened but then closing before we could explore it; and the burning and collapse of the tower. The latter was clearly GM-authored consequent on failed checks. The former flowed from player decisions made within the GM's framing of a teleportation circle.* We decided to head East the old-fashioned way. A successful Circle check revealed Friedrich returning back down the river on his raft. Looking at the map, we (ie the GM and I) agreed that Thurgon and Aramina would disembark at a particular point. This also happened to be back in the general vicinity of Auxol, and so Thurgon kept his eyes open for friends and family. A Circles check was successful again, and so Thurgon and Aramina came upon Thurgon's older brother Rufus driving a horse and cart. As plot-moments, these are definitely transitional with rising action at the end, rather than climaxes. They were player-authored. Rufus was described in my written backstory (as having mundane interests, including a mistress in town), but as I have not purchased a Relationship with him, a Circles check was necessary to meet him.* The interaction with Rufus was quite intense. As described by the GM, it was clear to Thurgon that Rufus was not who he had been, but seemed cowed - as Rufus explained when Thurgon asked after Auxol, he (Rufus) was on his way to collect wine for the master. Rufus mentioned that Thurgon's younger son had married not long ago - a bit of lore (like Rufus himself) taken from the background I'd prepared for Thurgon as part of PC gen - and had headed south in search of glory (that was something new the GM introduced). I mentioned that Aramina was not meeting Rufus's gaze (as per one of her Instincts at that time), and the GM picked up on this - Rufus asked Thurgon who this woman was who wouldn't look at him from beneath the hood of her cloak - was she a witch? Thurgon answered that she travelled with him and mended his armour. Then I switched to Aramina, and she looked Rufus directly in the eye and told him what she thought of him - "Thurgon has trained and is now seeking glory on his errantry, and his younger brother has gone too to seek glory, but your, Rufus . . ." I told the GM that I wanted to check Ugly Truth for Aramina, to cause a Steel check on Rufus's part. The GM decided that Rufus has Will 3, and then we quickly calculated his Steel which also came out at 3. My Ugly Truth check was a success, and the Steel check failed. Rufus looked at Aramina, shamed but unable to respond. Switching back to Thurgon, I tried to break Rufus out of it with a Command check: he should pull himself together and join in restoring Auxol to its former glory. But the check failed, and Rufus, broken, explained that he had to go and get the wine. Switching back to Aramina, I had a last go - she tried for untrained Command, saying that if he wasn't going to join with Thurgon he might at least give us some coin so that we might spend the night at an inn rather than camping. This was Will 5, with an advantage die for having cowed him the first time, against a double obstacle penalty for untrained (ie 6) +1 penalty because Rufus was very set in his way. It failed. and so Rufus rode on and now has animosity towards Aramina. As the GM said, she better not have her back to him while he has a knife ready to hand! This was a player-initiated situation. Most of the content came from the player - the GM embellished a little. It was definitely a player-authored plot-moment, although it didn't work out quite as I (and the PCs) had hoped.* The PCs The characters continued on, and soon arrived at Auxol,. The GM narrated the estate still being worked, but looking somewhat run-down compared to Thurgon's memories of it. An old, bowed woman greeted us - Xanthippe, looking much more than her 61 years. She welcomed Thurgon back, but chided him for having been away. And asked him not to leave again. The GM was getting ready to force a Duel of Wits on the point - ie that Thurgon should not leave again - when I tried a different approach. I'd already made a point of Thurgon having his arms on clear display as he rode through the countryside and the estate; now he raised his mace and shield to the heavens, and called on the Lord of Battle to bring strength back to his mother so that Auxol might be restored to its former greatness. This was a prayer for a Minor Miracle. A mix of resource expenditure (including "raising the death flag") and lucky rolling meant it succeeded. So a beam of light shot down from the sky, and Xanthippe straightened up and greeted Thurgon again, but this time with vigour and readiness to restore Auxol. The GM accepted my proposition that this played out Thurgon's Belief that Harm and infamy will befall Auxol no more! (earning a Persona point). His new Belief is Xanthippe and I will liberate Auxol. Turning back to Aramina, I decided that this made an impact on her too: up until now she had been cynical and slightly bitter, but now she was genuinely inspired and determined: instead of never meeting the gaze of a stranger, her Instinct is to look strangers in the eyes and Assess. And rather than I don't need Thurgon's pity, her Belief is Thurgon and I will liberate Auxol. This was the most dramatic plot-moment of the five sessions. It was largely player-authored (PC backstory, plus the Relationship meaning I can meet Xanthippe whenever fictional positioning permits), and while the GM had an idea of where it would head I was able to seize control and begin the process of redeeming Auxol.* There are various loose ends - the fate of the Order (as came out in the interactions with Orcs and Elves, and the abandoned fortress); the connection of the Order to the demon at Evard's tower; Evard's relationship to Orcs, and to the demon, and to Xanthippe and hence Thurgon; and who is Rufus's master? These are all GM-authored content (as a player I can't surprise myself with my own content, only my action resolutions!) But they orbit around the Beliefs and goals of my characters.[/spoiler]This actual play shows player authorship of plot taking place. It also illustrates, in a practical context, some of the general points made earlier in this post. It can also serve as fodder for further discussion/analysis if anyone is interested.</blockquote>

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