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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6732812" data-attributes="member: 67338">Yea, let me say there is some amount of overlap you can't help but have. How ever I have had some glareing issues in the past...As a PC I watched a guy come up with a brilliant idea, in 3.0 dragon mag had an alchemical item called powdered water. Using it he made bombs and guns... because a small amount of powder+drop of water made lots of water, if you held it under pressure it would do what expanding gas does in the real world... it was awesome he did the math out of game on how much pressure the expansion would cause and how different materials in the real world would hold up... and in game he was a high int wizard with ranks in engineering and alchemy (I think that was a craft)... then when that campaign ended we made up new characters and he was a high dex rogue and wanted to do it again, and the DM said "No, that was your last character, you can't do that again..." and he got mad.a much worse example was the door from heck... I was running a game at a friends house and I had a demon gate that would not open unless you sacrificed something to it (didn't have to be another PC but the magic mouth asked for that first). One of the PCs said "Hey look he put all of his effort into mapping and brining minis he wont get to use unless we get past it... so lets just sit here until he lets us by." and 3 of the 5 other PCs thought that was a great idea... just sit and waste time because the DM desgined the dungeon and would want to use it so no need to find away around it...the worst example "I will grind..." so I have one game I have run in 2e, 3e, 3.5, gurps, and 4e. It was a fun set up and something has stoped us from running until the end every time. The first time it was based on pure 'gotcha suprise' but sine 1 PC has been in every single one of the games and we talk about it, the 'gotcha' is way more telegraphed now.   any way so the 4e game. it was the worst (the edition was not a good one for the scenario) and we had a player who had heard of this world and idea but had never played it.   here is the set up... long ago there was this incursion from cathulu like 'outside the universe' evil, and these druids and gods worked togather and repeled it with the help of 5 artifact swords (each emboding part of the natural world) twice since then similar incursions have happened, when it does the swords come out and stop it... but for some reason the swords were lost 3,000 years ago... and around level 3 or 4 the PCs find out that the incursion is happening again.  They find the swords are all locked at these key places making a grid with ley lines, and each one is protected by guardians, and you have to fight through 5 dungeons to unlock them... pretty straight forward... except it's a trap. What has been struck from history is that 3,000 years ago praxton the godkiller raised an army to slay the gods and the god of magic sacrificed herself and 100 of her followers using the swords to lock him away, and remove all traces of him from history (even from other gods) so as they collect each sword the prison holding him is weakning, and there is no way for them to know... so when they grab the 3rd sword they let him out. He takes some tiem and rebuilds his strength, and when they beat one bad guy the big worse guy is at full strength...    OK so by now all the players know "grab 3rd sword epic level threat gets free" and there characters only know "We need the 5 swords or as many as we can get"... so this new player after looking at the frist two swords says "Hey wait, they are just +5 cool items, we could remake them if we were high enough level... so instead of getting them, why don't we go back to hunt some orcs grind XP...then we can win never letting praxton Out...."         this turned into multi huge debates. We actuall went 3 weeks just talking about it instead of playing because he didn't understand why it was a bad idea...edit: that fight didn't end the campaign, about 2 months later when 2 of the 5 PCs had to drop out because of a difficult pregnancy did it... some how it is the campaign I can't get to end</blockquote>

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