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Player-driven campaigns and developing strong stories
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8973553" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Yes, and you've committed a subtle but important fallacy.</p><p></p><p>You are confusing "player driven" with "character driven". The two things are not the same thing. I agree that you can have a campaign that is driven by the personalities of the characters and that the fundamental issue that is always being tested is the personality of the characters and personality conflicts by the characters. But the fact that your plot is "character driven" doesn't mean that your game is necessarily player driven or that character driven stories are the only way to have player driven games.</p><p></p><p>The fundamental problem with "character driven" play is that there is no guarantee at all that that is the desire and primary aesthetics of play of the players. It's not necessarily the case that the players want to see play that is primarily about their characters beliefs, bonds, and personality. They may have no interest at all in testing whether "our party, one that is potentially a bit of a powder keg, will they, can they, pull together?" And if I the GM am deciding that that is what the game is about, well we'd have character driven stories in a GM driven game.</p><p></p><p>Players and characters aren't the same thing. We often confuse those terms and say things like, "I killed all my players last night.", but as the example shows, it's important to keep that distinction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly you can mine all sorts of stories out of these sorts of conflicts, but the thing is, if this is the sort of story the players want to have they don't really need all that much support from me. Players can choose to lean into these sorts of conflicts on their own initiative because they are interested in it. They don't really need rules or a system. Issues like the above are potential subtext of even the most traditional sorts of games. I've seen players that want to lean into that sort of play and so they do, and that's great. One of the best things as a GM is being able to just lean back and watch your players entertain you with great intra-party RP. </p><p></p><p>But if that's what players want, they don't need to be forced to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm familiar with the theory and the style. My problem with it both as a player and a GM is that it isn't the experience I'm going after, even though as a player I am the sort of guy willing to lean into intra-party RP and conflict if I have other players willing to lean that way and skilled enough to do it. The problem I have with that "Nar" "Indy" style is that in the way it usually describes its processes of play is that the resulting play doesn't resemble being participants within a novel or a movie, but instead resembles the process of being a creative team tasked with creating a screenplay collaboratively. And that's a very different experience, and it's not one I particularly enjoy as either a player or a GM nor is it an experience that I think my current players are apt to enjoy. The aesthetics of play that are enjoyed by my table just aren't met through those processes of play.</p><p></p><p>But you don't have to run games that way for them to be either player driven or character driven or to run stories where you don't know where the story is going to go or for the GM to be surprised by where it goes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8973553, member: 4937"] Yes, and you've committed a subtle but important fallacy. You are confusing "player driven" with "character driven". The two things are not the same thing. I agree that you can have a campaign that is driven by the personalities of the characters and that the fundamental issue that is always being tested is the personality of the characters and personality conflicts by the characters. But the fact that your plot is "character driven" doesn't mean that your game is necessarily player driven or that character driven stories are the only way to have player driven games. The fundamental problem with "character driven" play is that there is no guarantee at all that that is the desire and primary aesthetics of play of the players. It's not necessarily the case that the players want to see play that is primarily about their characters beliefs, bonds, and personality. They may have no interest at all in testing whether "our party, one that is potentially a bit of a powder keg, will they, can they, pull together?" And if I the GM am deciding that that is what the game is about, well we'd have character driven stories in a GM driven game. Players and characters aren't the same thing. We often confuse those terms and say things like, "I killed all my players last night.", but as the example shows, it's important to keep that distinction. Certainly you can mine all sorts of stories out of these sorts of conflicts, but the thing is, if this is the sort of story the players want to have they don't really need all that much support from me. Players can choose to lean into these sorts of conflicts on their own initiative because they are interested in it. They don't really need rules or a system. Issues like the above are potential subtext of even the most traditional sorts of games. I've seen players that want to lean into that sort of play and so they do, and that's great. One of the best things as a GM is being able to just lean back and watch your players entertain you with great intra-party RP. But if that's what players want, they don't need to be forced to do it. I'm familiar with the theory and the style. My problem with it both as a player and a GM is that it isn't the experience I'm going after, even though as a player I am the sort of guy willing to lean into intra-party RP and conflict if I have other players willing to lean that way and skilled enough to do it. The problem I have with that "Nar" "Indy" style is that in the way it usually describes its processes of play is that the resulting play doesn't resemble being participants within a novel or a movie, but instead resembles the process of being a creative team tasked with creating a screenplay collaboratively. And that's a very different experience, and it's not one I particularly enjoy as either a player or a GM nor is it an experience that I think my current players are apt to enjoy. The aesthetics of play that are enjoyed by my table just aren't met through those processes of play. But you don't have to run games that way for them to be either player driven or character driven or to run stories where you don't know where the story is going to go or for the GM to be surprised by where it goes. [/QUOTE]
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