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Player-driven campaigns and developing strong stories
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8974499" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>What games have you played or GMed that promote player-driven play? Not which have you read, or which have you listened to a podcast about? Which do you have actually play experience with? </p><p></p><p>Because I and several others in this thread have shared actual games and actual examples of play that display that player-driven play is absolutely possible, and all you have done to take the opposite stance is to insist it is so. </p><p></p><p>Why should a neutral observer of this converstion listen to your opinion over that of others with the opposite opinion? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How is it bad? Generally speaking, I'd expect clarity in any set of rules and procedures would be viewed as a positive. In what ways do you think it is a negative? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That doesn't sound like anything anyone is promoting here as player-driven play. </p><p></p><p>It's more about letting the players determine the direction and focus of play. Or at least, letting them have much more say than is often present in traditional games. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Force players in what way? I mean, if I suggest Blades in the Dark as a game, I suppose the players are "forced" to play a criminal type of some sort, and to band together with the other PCs into a crew. But I think that'd all be covered by basic acceptance of taking part in the game. Once we're beyond that point, there's not a lot of play that is forced on the players. </p><p></p><p>There is some structure to the game... it's expected that the characters go on scores and then recover during downtime, and so on. But otherwise, no, not much is forced on the players. I mean, they're expected to follow the rules, but I don't think that's what you have in mind. </p><p></p><p>Have you ever played or run these types of games? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not a binary situation where either the GM has all power, or the players have all power. There is shared authority in these kinds of games. There are rules that are expected to be followed by each participant. I think that's one of the main differences between these games and many traditional ones (or traditional-minded GMs maybe): the GM is not above the rules. They are expected to honor what the dice say, and what the players declare. </p><p></p><p>Do you typically think that there is anything that the GM cannot override about the rules? I know that's how it seems from your past posts. Many games specifically don't want that to happen. No secret rolls, nothing happening without the players being aware... all of this stuff limits how the GM is able to steer things. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What do you think about games that are designed to deliver that exact experience? Don't you think it's more likely that such a game would make it easier for players to get into that kind of mindset? Like, if that's the way the game works, why would the players have a hard time with it?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8974499, member: 6785785"] What games have you played or GMed that promote player-driven play? Not which have you read, or which have you listened to a podcast about? Which do you have actually play experience with? Because I and several others in this thread have shared actual games and actual examples of play that display that player-driven play is absolutely possible, and all you have done to take the opposite stance is to insist it is so. Why should a neutral observer of this converstion listen to your opinion over that of others with the opposite opinion? How is it bad? Generally speaking, I'd expect clarity in any set of rules and procedures would be viewed as a positive. In what ways do you think it is a negative? That doesn't sound like anything anyone is promoting here as player-driven play. It's more about letting the players determine the direction and focus of play. Or at least, letting them have much more say than is often present in traditional games. Force players in what way? I mean, if I suggest Blades in the Dark as a game, I suppose the players are "forced" to play a criminal type of some sort, and to band together with the other PCs into a crew. But I think that'd all be covered by basic acceptance of taking part in the game. Once we're beyond that point, there's not a lot of play that is forced on the players. There is some structure to the game... it's expected that the characters go on scores and then recover during downtime, and so on. But otherwise, no, not much is forced on the players. I mean, they're expected to follow the rules, but I don't think that's what you have in mind. Have you ever played or run these types of games? It's not a binary situation where either the GM has all power, or the players have all power. There is shared authority in these kinds of games. There are rules that are expected to be followed by each participant. I think that's one of the main differences between these games and many traditional ones (or traditional-minded GMs maybe): the GM is not above the rules. They are expected to honor what the dice say, and what the players declare. Do you typically think that there is anything that the GM cannot override about the rules? I know that's how it seems from your past posts. Many games specifically don't want that to happen. No secret rolls, nothing happening without the players being aware... all of this stuff limits how the GM is able to steer things. What do you think about games that are designed to deliver that exact experience? Don't you think it's more likely that such a game would make it easier for players to get into that kind of mindset? Like, if that's the way the game works, why would the players have a hard time with it? [/QUOTE]
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