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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9419539" data-attributes="member: 82106">My use of the term was simply in response to your use of it. You described a player authoring some fiction in order to provide fictional position for bypassing an obstacle, or solving it using a more advantageous mechanic as 'feeling like cheating'. I simply responded to that with the observation that, within the context of a system like 4e's SCs this is in no sense cheating, simply optimum play. I would extend that to other systems, like Dungeon World, say, where the process would actually involve a check of basically the same sort as trying to climb the wall (IE Discern Realities revealing the existence of a ladder). TB2 would also involve a check, with all the implications of grind/cost of living/conditions/resource depletion that implies. In none of the Narrativist systems of which I'm familiar would a player making up some fiction of this sort be anything unusual or 'cheating'.I think there's still a very old school fundamental core assumption that many people have buried so deeply in their thinking about these topics that they barely recognize its presence. That is the idea that, fundamentally, the purpose of play is to create challenging puzzle-like tests of player skill, and that the GM and players have some kind of fundamentally oppositional role with respect to that. So, in any case where a player can influence the elements of fiction in a way that is outside their character's actions is a form of 'cheating' because it changes the conditions of some sort of test, and there's an unwritten rule that this is not allowed. Before you can, if you wish to do so, move on to using other forms of play, you have to stop making these assumptions. The exercise of skill in the play of the game that I am interested in when playing in a Narrativist mode is skill in terms of constructing the Narrative, and particularly exploring and exemplifying my character within it. With that in mind it makes no sense for me to want to simply bypass obstacles. I want interesting challenges for the character, that may also produce interesting challenges for myself in terms of deploying mechanics and resources in such a way as to depict my character doing successful things, but not boring or idiotic things, actually interesting ones. I'm also challenged in a gamist sense to do so using the resources given to me by the system in a clever and efficient way. If I don't, then the GM should depict mounting challenge and defeat (or maybe I get really lucky). In that sense there is STILL some 'taking different sides' between me and the GM at times. If he plays with integrity, then when I blow it, my character tragically fails, or at least encounters even more difficult situations. So it is definitely a game, but one with a certain set of goals, and in which, relevant to this thread, player generated fiction plays a fairly significant part at times.</blockquote>

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