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player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)
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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 8055700" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>I have played all of those games through the years. I have certainly played with the notion that "metagaming" was a problem for most of my RPG life. I can't say with certainty where that came from but it likely had much to do with the group's preferences which were picked up from somewhere or another. That could have been from the rules themselves. We certainly made it part of our group's mantra. If you did it, you got called out for it. We still call each other "filthy metagamer" ironically when someone lobs a fire bolt at a troll.</p><p></p><p>I started to fall out of love with this way of playing in D&D 4e when I felt like my D&D 4e game wasn't as good as it could be. It was at that time I decided to forget what I new about previous editions of D&D - all the baggage of the 90s and 00s - and read the rules and try to imagine the game that best fits those rules, including everything in the DMG. When I implemented it, the game started to sing. This is where I developed the process that I still use which is to treat every game distinctly. To examine every approach I'm using and ruthlessly question its place in the game I'm playing to make sure it didn't belong better in some other game. Different games demand different approaches. Among those approaches was not worrying about "metagaming" as I had done for years. (D&D 4e & D&D 5e take similar positions on "metagame thinking.")</p><p></p><p>There isn't any support in these games for making a deal out of "metagaming." And the game simply works better in my experience without this concern. I've been in games recently where there was a "No Metagaming" provision and I have to say it was slower paced, contained poorer roleplaying, and a lot of metagame distractions like (what I would say are) unnecessary checks compared to what goes on in my games. Lots of Q&A with the DM. And almost always, the DM was setting the stage for "metagaming" to occur. All the usual stuff that I left behind years ago in other editions and other games.</p><p></p><p>In truth, I think this "no metagaming" approach is more of an identify for many groups now than it is a playstyle. It's how they've always done it. They haven't questioned it very much even as they change editions or games. It's just what they do and it has become in effect who they are. <em>Other </em>people who don't share their views are "filthy metagamers" or "cheaters" or "rollplayers" or worse. In part I think this explains the often visceral reactions one gets when pointing out its flaws or inconsistencies. Or how the approach doesn't really seem to reliably achieve its intended goals compared to other approaches where the presentation and adjudication obviates the push to "metagame" and where players have an incentive to verify their assumptions through action.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 8055700, member: 97077"] I have played all of those games through the years. I have certainly played with the notion that "metagaming" was a problem for most of my RPG life. I can't say with certainty where that came from but it likely had much to do with the group's preferences which were picked up from somewhere or another. That could have been from the rules themselves. We certainly made it part of our group's mantra. If you did it, you got called out for it. We still call each other "filthy metagamer" ironically when someone lobs a fire bolt at a troll. I started to fall out of love with this way of playing in D&D 4e when I felt like my D&D 4e game wasn't as good as it could be. It was at that time I decided to forget what I new about previous editions of D&D - all the baggage of the 90s and 00s - and read the rules and try to imagine the game that best fits those rules, including everything in the DMG. When I implemented it, the game started to sing. This is where I developed the process that I still use which is to treat every game distinctly. To examine every approach I'm using and ruthlessly question its place in the game I'm playing to make sure it didn't belong better in some other game. Different games demand different approaches. Among those approaches was not worrying about "metagaming" as I had done for years. (D&D 4e & D&D 5e take similar positions on "metagame thinking.") There isn't any support in these games for making a deal out of "metagaming." And the game simply works better in my experience without this concern. I've been in games recently where there was a "No Metagaming" provision and I have to say it was slower paced, contained poorer roleplaying, and a lot of metagame distractions like (what I would say are) unnecessary checks compared to what goes on in my games. Lots of Q&A with the DM. And almost always, the DM was setting the stage for "metagaming" to occur. All the usual stuff that I left behind years ago in other editions and other games. In truth, I think this "no metagaming" approach is more of an identify for many groups now than it is a playstyle. It's how they've always done it. They haven't questioned it very much even as they change editions or games. It's just what they do and it has become in effect who they are. [I]Other [/I]people who don't share their views are "filthy metagamers" or "cheaters" or "rollplayers" or worse. In part I think this explains the often visceral reactions one gets when pointing out its flaws or inconsistencies. Or how the approach doesn't really seem to reliably achieve its intended goals compared to other approaches where the presentation and adjudication obviates the push to "metagame" and where players have an incentive to verify their assumptions through action. [/QUOTE]
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