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player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8064440" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Well, yes, I very much am doing exactly this. You didn't want an F-14 for the sole sake of having an F-14, you wanted it for what it did and represented -- unabashed power-fantasy represented by being able to deliver massive power virtually unthreatened. It's just that younger you put that in an F-14 wrapper and no one else at the table unpacked it.</p><p></p><p>I'm reasonably confident you didn't want an F-14 because you wanted to do the avionics loading and configuration for missions, and you didn't want to do loadout to fuel charts for mission planning, and you didn't want to do engine maintenance, and you didn't want to sit in the very cramped cockpit and pee into the catheter on long missions. No, an actual F-14 was very probably not at all what you wanted. Instead, you wanted what younger you though an F-14 <em>represented</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sigh. I suppose that if the player really insists that the character is exactly picturing an F-14, that's fine -- but when it comes to adjudication things can fall apart if such things cannot exist within the world as defined by the genre expectations agreed to. That's pretty much not what's happening though -- instead the player is saying "F-14" but really intends a set of desires that is held within whatever concept of an F-14 the player has. I've worked on planes, although not an F-14, so my concept of a fighter isn't all blowing up targets and whizzing around the sky -- it's grounded very much in all of the work that occurs to allow the pilots to do a bit of that alongside a lot of unglamorous things. So, if you say "I want an F-14" in my game, our pictures of what that would mean are probably very different. It's better to look at that request as an ask for a set of concepts that need translating rather than an actualized desire for all an F-14 represents in reality. And, it's better to do that than use such an odd premise -- that a player wants all that a real F-14 is in game -- as a way to poke holes in a play approach.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and that's the job of everyone at the table -- to find the way that what's really wanted can be brought into play.</p><p></p><p>I probably wouldn't, because it's an extreme edge case. There's a few things I would bring up that would likely head it off, and that a discussion of genre expectations in play -- this is very much an important topic when setting up a game. And, if done, would probably help this discussion:</p><p></p><p>"I wish for an F-14!"</p><p></p><p>"Bob, we talked about this, and everyone agreed this was going to be a stock fantasy game with no technology. An F-14 violates that. Can we work out what a genre appropriate version of what you want would look like, because if you ask me to adjudicate that, it doesn't exist in this game and the wish can't grant it."</p><p></p><p>There, addresses the issue, seeks solution, and never once dictates what a PC can think, just points out that thinking of things that can't exist doesn't make them exist. The GM controls the adjudication, which includes the ability to say an attempt fails.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8064440, member: 16814"] Well, yes, I very much am doing exactly this. You didn't want an F-14 for the sole sake of having an F-14, you wanted it for what it did and represented -- unabashed power-fantasy represented by being able to deliver massive power virtually unthreatened. It's just that younger you put that in an F-14 wrapper and no one else at the table unpacked it. I'm reasonably confident you didn't want an F-14 because you wanted to do the avionics loading and configuration for missions, and you didn't want to do loadout to fuel charts for mission planning, and you didn't want to do engine maintenance, and you didn't want to sit in the very cramped cockpit and pee into the catheter on long missions. No, an actual F-14 was very probably not at all what you wanted. Instead, you wanted what younger you though an F-14 [I]represented[/I]. Sigh. I suppose that if the player really insists that the character is exactly picturing an F-14, that's fine -- but when it comes to adjudication things can fall apart if such things cannot exist within the world as defined by the genre expectations agreed to. That's pretty much not what's happening though -- instead the player is saying "F-14" but really intends a set of desires that is held within whatever concept of an F-14 the player has. I've worked on planes, although not an F-14, so my concept of a fighter isn't all blowing up targets and whizzing around the sky -- it's grounded very much in all of the work that occurs to allow the pilots to do a bit of that alongside a lot of unglamorous things. So, if you say "I want an F-14" in my game, our pictures of what that would mean are probably very different. It's better to look at that request as an ask for a set of concepts that need translating rather than an actualized desire for all an F-14 represents in reality. And, it's better to do that than use such an odd premise -- that a player wants all that a real F-14 is in game -- as a way to poke holes in a play approach. Yes, and that's the job of everyone at the table -- to find the way that what's really wanted can be brought into play. I probably wouldn't, because it's an extreme edge case. There's a few things I would bring up that would likely head it off, and that a discussion of genre expectations in play -- this is very much an important topic when setting up a game. And, if done, would probably help this discussion: "I wish for an F-14!" "Bob, we talked about this, and everyone agreed this was going to be a stock fantasy game with no technology. An F-14 violates that. Can we work out what a genre appropriate version of what you want would look like, because if you ask me to adjudicate that, it doesn't exist in this game and the wish can't grant it." There, addresses the issue, seeks solution, and never once dictates what a PC can think, just points out that thinking of things that can't exist doesn't make them exist. The GM controls the adjudication, which includes the ability to say an attempt fails. [/QUOTE]
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