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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 1564100" data-attributes="member: 317">Actually, I couldn't disagree more.  If Dragonlancer and his players are having fun with their more immersive style, and another player comes in and disrupts the group by powergaming, the problem is with the powergamer player, not the rest of the group.  While he may be following the rules of the books, he is breaking the rules the group has agreed upon and their implied limits for what they enjoy, which are MORE important than following the exact rules in the books.  If likuidice wants to continue to play with this group, it is HIS responsibility to try and mesh more with their style so as not to be disruptive.  And before someone screams "powergamer discrimination!", if this situation were reversed and an immersive roleplayer were in a group of powergamers, my advice would be the same- adapt to their style or find a new group.Dragonlancer's problem with powergaming isn't due to a lack of ability, but seems to be due to the fact its not the playstyle he and his group enjoy.  To fit his playstyle, he probably works encounters to cater to the non-optimized characters abilities, but a min-maxed character would come in and thrash  through it with no problem.  I have been in situations like this too (on both sides actually), and its IMMENSELY frustrating to the other players.  What used to be challenging to them is not handled almost single-handedly by one PC.  If Dragonlancer bumps up the opponents to be on par and a challenge for Likuidice's character, the other PCs get slaughtered.  If the other players enjoy a lower-power style of play, it isn't fair to ask them to change since Likuidice is the only one who likes optimized characters.  If a player will not adapt to the playstyle of his group, he is the player who lacks the ability to consider other possibilities.EDIT: Arguing with the DM for rulings because they "aren't by the books" is a BIG problem though.  The DM may have other considerations or conditions in mind when he applied a -3 modifier instead of the recommended +/-2.  From what I've heard about the situation where the -3 came up, it was minor point in an adventure, and it seems petty to argue about it.  The rules are a set of GUIDELINES, they are not absolute.  The DM is the final arbiter of those rules, and he needs to use good judgement when applying them to his group.  Most DMs do a pretty good job of this, and only rarely have I met a DM who is spiteful or mean in his rulings.  Dragonlancer doesn't strike me as this kind of DM at all.  Instead, it seems like there is a trust issue here- players have to trust the DM to be fair, while the DM has to trust the players to not be abusive with the rules.  Sure, it might be legal to use a certain race/class/skill/feat/spell combo, but if that combo detracts from the fun of the game for the DM and other players, it needs to be limited.  I can almost guarantee if Likuidice tries taking the lower-powered route with this group and shows he is willing to compromise, Dragonlancer and the other players will be more accepting of some of his ideas, and some trust can be re-established.</blockquote>

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