Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="StalkingBlue" data-source="post: 1573523" data-attributes="member: 645">Hi DragonLancer - After six pages of discussion, I'm still not sure what it is you are after.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Are you seeking advice on whether it will be ok to ditch your player?  If so, yup, definitely. If he can't or won't play the style that you and your group enjoy and thereby seriously detracts from people's fun, he's a liability, not an asset.  There's nothing to prevent you from still having him around for BBQs if he's a good friend/ fun to socialise with, even if he doesn't play in your game anymore.   Or are you seeking advice on how to deal with the problems the player causes in your game while keeping him in the group?  If so I guess you've had quite a bit of advice already.  A couple more points, made in case you are still seeking solutions.  Re rules arguing: This is the easier issue because it can actually be dealt with.  Two words:  "Shut. Up."  It is your responsibility as DM to keep rules discussions to a minimum.  Personally I will usually listen to player queries (with a more open mind when voiced politely  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ), but once I've listened - once! - and confirmed or reversed my queried ruling, that ruling stands and there will be no more discussion over it at the table.  Every player is always welcome to come talk to me outside game sessions if there's a problem.  (Of course if you don't really tend to run the game by the rules, that is bound to be extremely painful for your powergamer player - you may succeed in shutting him up, but you'll keep frustrating him.) Re character building:  You invite misunderstanding by saying things like "Optimised is fine. Excessive isn’t."  Optimised means most efficient, most, best - by definition it is the top of things, so 'excessive' has no application here.  <a href="http://adams.allwords.com/word-optimise.html:" target="_blank">http://adams.allwords.com/word-optimise.html:</a> '1. To make the most or best of (a particular situation or opportunity, etc).2. To make the most efficient use of something, especially by analysing and planning.'(Not to mention that obviously not every group will consider average damage output of 100+ hp per attack as excessive at high levels.)  Before you repeat yourself: I can vaguely gather what maybe you might mean (primarily because of BardStephenFox's analysis earlier in this thread), but your words don't say it - and more importantly, I don't get even the cloudiest idea of where the limplied limits your other players impose on themselves may lie.  There are limits, that much is obvious from your complaints.  But what are they? How far can I go in creating and developing a character and where should I stop?  I'm by no means a powergamer, but if I played in your game and you told me I needed to change my approach, then what you've said here wouldn't help me to adapt any better to the play style you want.  I'd need a lot clearer guidance on where the limits are and how far I should or shouldn't go rules-wise.  If the style of your group involves implied limits and most players agree on where those limits are, that is fine. It also means they aren't optimising their characters - again, that's fine. However, you can't expect everyone to reach the same level of implied understanding without explanation, I'd say I'm pretty sensitive to group dynamics, but I couldn't work with what you are telling us here.  And of course you can't expect a player with a powergamer mentality to understand implied limits anyway.  It just won't work.  You are never going to get anywhere pointing to your group's style exclaiming, 'But he's been witnessing it for two years!'.  IMO you have exactly two options here:  get rid of the player with the incompatible style. _Or_ provide strict rules limitations for everyone - the more you limit options, the less space for powergaming for the so inclined.  This will mean heavyhandedness on character build options such as ability scores, feats, Prestige Classes (of course!), as well as item availability.  Complaining about how misunderstood your style is by likuidice isn't likely to yield any better results than it has in the past.</blockquote>

Verification