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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Carpe DM" data-source="post: 1573992" data-attributes="member: 677">There are several issues here, and one difficulty is that they are not being separated.1. Rules-lawyering and DM Credibility.The first issue is the role of rules.  Rules exist to serve serveral functions, but one function that Dragonlancer may be overlooking is that they serve as arbiters of DM neutrality.  If I were a player and sensed that my play style was *withing the rules* but *under attack from my DM*, I'd be a stickler for the rules too.So, DL, I think one thing you have to work on is your credibility.  Players will let a gamemaster they trust bend the rules.  Players will be sticklers for the rules if they sense the DM is trying to bend them to a certain playstyle.I do the following things to build credibility when I start any new group:A.  I state a list of all RULE 0s that I am currently aware of.  That way they know in advance.  (And, to be honest, I have some doozies -- for example, in my world, resurrection past a month's time is very rare.  The dead tend to stay dead).B.  I roll in the open and state target numbers before the roll.  The players do the same.  That way, if an orc charging with a greataxe rolls a 20 and confirms, the player who is now going to die saw it happen.  This is not me out to get them.C.  I scrupulously follow the rules unless there is an ingame reason to do otherwise.  Players invest in the rules because the rules give them power over the gameworld.  A DM's power to break the rules is a direct threat to the player's source of power.   Therefore, any time I break the rules (and I do so occasionally) there is an INGAME -- not METAGAME -- reason why.D.  I state the rulesets that are applicable (for me, WOTC-published books, subject to rule-0 on any item that creates an instant or unavoidable kill).2.  "Chaotic" behavior and Hack'n'Slash.A lot of people here think this is a typical "problem player" thread.  One guy plays a chaotic-evil rogue / wizard / assassin and kills other players, won't roleplay, and generally is out to be obnoxious.THIS IS NOT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.  The player in question is guilty of powergaming (so am I, and in fact so are the best DMs out there -- how do you think we keep you challenged?), but not anti-party behavior.  If he were, the solution would be simple -- ask him to stop.Another problem is that people see the rest of the party as "immersive" roleplayers.  They're not.  They just don't like anyone (ANYONE) doing over 100 damage in one round. (some bad news: My wife's character in 3.5 managed 1500 damage in a round, and I am a stickler's stickler for the rules -- see the old SMACKDOWN post series).Adding artificial limits on combat smacks of favoritism.3. General Party DynamicHowever, I do have something to say in DL's defense -- even though his statements that someone who plays by the rules "refuses" to see his side of the picture is pretty rampant hypocrisy (and why is it that it isn't you who "refuses" to see his side?).I have never had a problem with being a powergamer in a roleplaying / immersive group.  I play characters designed to *hurt* things.  I regularly hand out obscene amounts of damage.  I roleplay well, and I cooperate with the party.  I have never had a group that didn't cheer me on as I handed out the whoopass.That's because I am a cooperative, polite player who knows when not to argue with the DM for the sake of the story.  I know when to pick my fights about the rules (i.e., when the DM is 1. WRONG and 2. someone's life is at stake).  When the DM is changing rules just to help the story, or when nobody is going to die as a result, I just let it slide. So, where there's smoke, there's fire, Likuidice.  I would suggest that you rules-lawyer-out on your DM only when he is 1. DEAD WRONG (not just arguably wrong like with silly fights over circumstance modifiers) and 2. only when someone's life is at stake.  Otherwise, roll with the punch, and have fun with whatever new scenario is at stake.DL, I would say: Roll in the open, state your Rule 0s ahead of time (not after the fact), and don't Rule 0 if you don't have an ingame reason for it.  Saying this is a "playstyle" thing doesn't seem quite honest: he plays immersive and roleplays just fine.  You just don't like the damage his character does.  If the rules let his character do that damage, then let him do it.  I wish you the best of luck.Carpe</blockquote>

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