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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8096400" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>IMO a player who finds a loophole can either a) point it out to the DM so she can close it, or b) use it in expectation that the DM will close it before the next time someone can use it.</p><p></p><p>In fact, one can almost argue it's part of the players' responsibility, as an offshoot of advocating for their PCs, to push the rules a bit and see if they break; just as it's the DM's responsibility to push back and make sure the rules don't break.</p><p></p><p>This one's a complete DM fail in two ways, and not a player fail at all.</p><p></p><p>DM fail 1: allowing retries, unless there's been a material change in circumstances and-or method of approach.</p><p>DM fail 2: allowing the player to roll for skill checks with non-obvious success-fail outcomes rather than doing the roll behind the screen and narrating the in-game results. Climbing, where the other PCs can see what you're doing, has an obvious-to-all success-fail outcome and thus having the player roll the check is fine. Searching, OTOH, does not have an obvious-to-all outcome: whether failure was due to incompetence/bad luck (as represented by a poor roll) or because what you seek isn't there to find (as represented by any roll) isn't known to the PC(s) and thus should not be known to the player(s).</p><p></p><p>Nothing wrong with a player trying to talk the DM into a more lenient interpretation of the rules. Lots wrong with the DM agreeing to it.</p><p></p><p>I agree with your points in general, except I put the fault at the DM's feet rather than the players.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8096400, member: 29398"] IMO a player who finds a loophole can either a) point it out to the DM so she can close it, or b) use it in expectation that the DM will close it before the next time someone can use it. In fact, one can almost argue it's part of the players' responsibility, as an offshoot of advocating for their PCs, to push the rules a bit and see if they break; just as it's the DM's responsibility to push back and make sure the rules don't break. This one's a complete DM fail in two ways, and not a player fail at all. DM fail 1: allowing retries, unless there's been a material change in circumstances and-or method of approach. DM fail 2: allowing the player to roll for skill checks with non-obvious success-fail outcomes rather than doing the roll behind the screen and narrating the in-game results. Climbing, where the other PCs can see what you're doing, has an obvious-to-all success-fail outcome and thus having the player roll the check is fine. Searching, OTOH, does not have an obvious-to-all outcome: whether failure was due to incompetence/bad luck (as represented by a poor roll) or because what you seek isn't there to find (as represented by any roll) isn't known to the PC(s) and thus should not be known to the player(s). Nothing wrong with a player trying to talk the DM into a more lenient interpretation of the rules. Lots wrong with the DM agreeing to it. I agree with your points in general, except I put the fault at the DM's feet rather than the players. [/QUOTE]
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