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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 9811565" data-attributes="member: 7029588">I didn't mean to say that if you are interested in D&D you are interested in charop -- I specifically carved that out.    I meant you aren't adverse to a game that has a lot of strategic game rules for combat.   It's explicit that the player makes choices (player skill) on where to move, which enemy to select, and what ability to use.  Abilities are for the most part tightly defined.   You can of course be creative in planning/problem solving to gain an advantage or bypass this type of player skill and to some extent the character abilities, and I think that has it's place in D&D.   If that is the primary focus of your game, however, then I would offer that there are superior rpgs these days to play.And it's not that you can't ignore/break/change rules when they don't fit.   Sure, I do that too.   But it's better to have those discussions upfront.I'm not opposed to problem solving/lateral thinking/planning giving advantages or being necessary to reach certain objectives.   But can it bypass character skill altogether?   Under what circumstances?   Do these player skill solutions align with in world characters or is it fine to have a disconnect at times?   Can you use character skill if the player skill option fails (say in searching)?We did this a lot when playing AD&D/Basic as kids, but in the end it is often a kind of "DM will this work?".    Again, I'm not opposed to this altogether.    If you have a group of like minded people and a DM where you are aligned on what is "good" problem solving/planning/creativity then it is a lot of fun and yes partly what a TTRPG does better than board games/video games.But back to the original intent of the thread:D&D (and other rpgs) have character abilities (stats, skills, powers, etc.) that try to represent that character in the world.These games also have some space carved out for the "game" aspect of rpg, where player skill is involved.If you care, how do you carve out a player skill space while still letting the character manifest appropriately within the game world?This may be true, but most rpgs have some default character mechanics and you still have to make the decision on how the character mechanics that are there relate to the focus on player skill if the rpg is not explicit about it and there is potential overlap.Pre campaign discussion:  "For our D&D game there's these skills called Perception and Investigate, but you can as a player (independent of what your character abilities say) can narrate looking at objects, manipulating things, etc. and the DM will tell you if you find hidden things.    You can also roll Perception or Investigate if you don't want to or can't figure it out."This is a valid set up, although I prefer games which allow the player skill option to not have perception or investigate at all.Another option are games like Fate and Cortex where non combat and combat is similar rules and some player skill is involved in invoking aspects, creating aspects, narration edits, selecting traits, etc.  but resolution is mostly character skill driven.</blockquote>

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