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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 9811756" data-attributes="member: 7029588">It can be a fun type of game.   But early D&D didn't have Perception and Investigation skills which is where things get more murky.   Even in early D&D we would sometimes perceive the disconnect though because of ability scores.   Why does my 18 Int Wizard struggle with this fairly simple logic puzzle just because the players are not up to it?   You can look the other way, justify it because the character is having a bad day, etc. but it's sometimes stretching...It comes back to what should be player skill and what character skill.    It's ok to have logic puzzles be player skill if you set that upfront and are ok with the little bit of disconnect if you have smart characters but not as smart players...    It is more problematic if you have character abilities that overlap as then they become either trap options or you have a weird either/or/both situations.   I don't think the move to character ability (more skills, etc.) was primarily to prevent DM's using lack of player skill against them.   I think it was a move to make it more congruent between character abilities and tasks.    But D&D never came up with the equivalent of combat (move, select target, which ability) player skill so it has become for many only character skill which is perhaps not great either.</blockquote>