Player v. Character knowledge

[Mystery Man]

Does anyone have a good link to an article or tips/advice on separating Player and Character knowledge? I have a player who, short of me beating him unconscious with a 3.5 Monster Manual, tends to think in terms of numbers and thinks he can crack open the MM and look at the monsters stats before his turn.
There's not much you can do to set me off, but that one will get a vein to pop on my forehead and a player on the recieving end of a pretty harsh butt chewing. He's new at the game and I'm a lousy teacher when it comes to this aspect of the DnD experience.

Need some advice!

 

[Mark]

Might find some help here somewhere...

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47525

 

[Morrus]

I used to worry about this a lot, and came up with numerous "measures" to prevent it. In the long run, though, I realised that doing so didn't actually increase my enjoyment of the game (or anyone else's), so I don't worry about it so much. I still throw in a few "altered" monsters or spells here and there to confuse people, though.
[Edit - although I've never allowed players to read the MM in mid-encounter!]

 

[Mystery Man]

[Edit - although I've never allowed players to read the MM in mid-encounter!]

Me niether! And after my initial reaction to what he was doing, I can assure you this player won't be doing that again.

 

[MarauderX]

Alter every monster for a while. I would use new critters out of Dragon, or from other sources to throw at them, as it will make the new guy realize there is no point to memorizing the CR to the most common baddies in the MMs. Plus your other players will be just as unsure of themselves as the new guy when encountering something new, and they may run more often which is always fun.

 

[Umbran]

As folks have mentioned, there are two basic controls:

First, players should not generally have the MM available to them at the gaming table. But you'd already figured that one out

Second - don't play everything straight. If you alter the details of some of the monsters in ways the characters woudln't know, then book-learning won't help them. As a corollary, if you alter the monster in a way the characters would know, then pass that knowledge on to them. For example - trolls are common enough critters on most worlds, and their vulnerability to fire is legendary. If you change this, you probably ought to change the legend, too.

 

[ciaran00]

When monster tactics is scarier than the monster it doesn't much matter. Eventually your players are going to know anyway, so...

ciaran

 

[Buttercup]

I use a fairly small palatte of monsters--orcs, goblins, evil elves and the odd wild animal or undead--so my players know perfectly well what they're facing. It doesn't do them much good, though, because I tend to add hit dice and classes to them. That band of goblins you're facing might have 3 levels of ranger, with a favored enemy of human, and poison tipped weapons. Sure, they're "only" goblins, but if the players aren't careful, they'll come down with an acute case of dead. I like the PCs to have a nice, healthy fear of battle. It builds character.

 

[Steverooo]

I always use player knowledge = PC knowledge, as I find it helps make them more creative in using what they know. I inform them, however, that the MM is a book of legends, and legends are often wrong...

I use the D&D Troll, sure, but there are two-headed trolls, in my world, as well as the more Norse-derived stone troll with thicker skin. I have never used the (A)D&D version of the vampire unchanged, as it is so different from Brahm Stoker's.

Of course, if you don't want PCs looking stuff up, just take them to the crypt of the Illorkun, or Igigim... Same thing, but few players will recognize the esoterica reference (Red Sonja/Necronomicon names for vamps).

 

[Pseudonym]

My problem is not so much with players referencing the MM mid-encounter, it's that with a group of people who have been playing D&D in its various incarnations for 15 to 20 years, they can quote the book verbatim based on a few words of my initial discription, even for the obscure monsters.

Thankfully they don't abuse that knowledge, but I like to throw them trolls with a vulnerability to sonic damage or variant lycanthrops with a vulnerability to gold once in a while.