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Players choose what their PCs do . . .
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7628625" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Well, this goes back to the quote from Donald Davidson in the OP:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>If the PC <em>winks at the maiden and softens her heart</em> the PC hasn't done two things (<em>wink</em>, and as a separate thing <em>soften her heart</em>) - that way lies madness because it will quickly lead to near-endless multiplication of the number of events that have occurred (eg you'll have each movement of an eyelash through each point of space as a separate and distinct thing that the PC did).</p><p></p><p>There is one action but it falls under more than one description. In the context of playing a RPG, which involves generating shared agreement on the descriptions that are true in the fiction, I think the question of who gets to establish which descriptions is quite interesting. And I think that saying <em>the player gets to decide what the PC does</em> isn't a useful way of answering the question.</p><p></p><p>The OP makes a straightforward but perhaps not simple point: when the PC winks at the maiden and softens her heart, the PC has performed one action (that falls under more than one description), not two. Separating it into <em>action</em> and <em>result</em> already assumes a regimentation that is not straightforward either in theory or in practice - eg is the player allowed to describe <em>I tighten my hand about the pommel of my sheathed sword and move it in a sword-drawing motion</em> or is the player allowed to describe <em>I draw my sword</em>. Those are two different descriptions of what, typically, will be the one action. You can frame the first as the action and the second as the result if you like, but I think there is a lot of RPG play which won't conform to that way of parsing the example.</p><p></p><p>Likewise for <em>I use my larynx, mouth, breath etc as I would to loudly speak the words "Help me"</em> and <em>I call out to my companions, "Help me"</em>. Etc.</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that in different systems, and perhaps on different occasions within a system, it may become important to know who has authority to establish which descriptions as true in the fiction, and how they can do this. Saying <em>the player gets to describe what the PC does</em> and/or <em>the GM gets to decide the result</em> won't help. Whereas characterising it as <em>establishing the truth of a description in the shared fiction</em> gets the subject-matter of the discussion right.</p><p></p><p>And what if a player says "I wink at the maiden to soften her heart"?</p><p></p><p>I'll have another go:</p><p></p><p>Suppose the player says <em>I wink at the maiden to soften her heart</em>.</p><p></p><p>And the GM replies <em>OK, that's a Difficulty 4 Presence check. You can add your Glamourie to your pool if you have it</em>. (I'm using Prince Valiant as the system here - it's pretty simple.)</p><p></p><p>And the player replies <em>Right, well I've got 3 Presence and 2 Glamourie so that's 5 coins in my pool</em> - then tosses the coins, and they come down in a 3/2 split, so FAILURE - ie short of 4 successes.</p><p></p><p>Now, what is true in the fiction? From the failure, we know it's not true that <em>the PC winked at the maiden and softened her heart</em>. Is it true that <em>the PC winked at the maiden</em>? Who gets to decide that, and according to what principles? Is it true that <em>the PC winked</em>? Who gets to decide that, and according to what principles?</p><p></p><p>The Prince Valiant rulebook doesn't actually come out and answer these questions - it was written in the late 80s and RPG designers hadn't got as good as contemporary ones about addressing these important issues of play - but it does contain some hints.</p><p></p><p>I don't think you can answer by saying <em>the player decides what the PC does</em> - because if this was true, then the player could decide that the PC <em>softens the maiden's heart with a wink</em>. Yet we know that has been taken off the table in virtue of the failed check result.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7628625, member: 42582"] Well, this goes back to the quote from Donald Davidson in the OP: [indent][/indent] If the PC [I]winks at the maiden and softens her heart[/I] the PC hasn't done two things ([I]wink[/I], and as a separate thing [I]soften her heart[/I]) - that way lies madness because it will quickly lead to near-endless multiplication of the number of events that have occurred (eg you'll have each movement of an eyelash through each point of space as a separate and distinct thing that the PC did). There is one action but it falls under more than one description. In the context of playing a RPG, which involves generating shared agreement on the descriptions that are true in the fiction, I think the question of who gets to establish which descriptions is quite interesting. And I think that saying [I]the player gets to decide what the PC does[/I] isn't a useful way of answering the question. The OP makes a straightforward but perhaps not simple point: when the PC winks at the maiden and softens her heart, the PC has performed one action (that falls under more than one description), not two. Separating it into [I]action[/I] and [I]result[/I] already assumes a regimentation that is not straightforward either in theory or in practice - eg is the player allowed to describe [I]I tighten my hand about the pommel of my sheathed sword and move it in a sword-drawing motion[/I] or is the player allowed to describe [I]I draw my sword[/I]. Those are two different descriptions of what, typically, will be the one action. You can frame the first as the action and the second as the result if you like, but I think there is a lot of RPG play which won't conform to that way of parsing the example. Likewise for [I]I use my larynx, mouth, breath etc as I would to loudly speak the words "Help me"[/I] and [I]I call out to my companions, "Help me"[/I]. Etc. It seems to me that in different systems, and perhaps on different occasions within a system, it may become important to know who has authority to establish which descriptions as true in the fiction, and how they can do this. Saying [I]the player gets to describe what the PC does[/I] and/or [I]the GM gets to decide the result[/I] won't help. Whereas characterising it as [I]establishing the truth of a description in the shared fiction[/I] gets the subject-matter of the discussion right. And what if a player says "I wink at the maiden to soften her heart"? I'll have another go: Suppose the player says [I]I wink at the maiden to soften her heart[/I]. And the GM replies [I]OK, that's a Difficulty 4 Presence check. You can add your Glamourie to your pool if you have it[/I]. (I'm using Prince Valiant as the system here - it's pretty simple.) And the player replies [I]Right, well I've got 3 Presence and 2 Glamourie so that's 5 coins in my pool[/I] - then tosses the coins, and they come down in a 3/2 split, so FAILURE - ie short of 4 successes. Now, what is true in the fiction? From the failure, we know it's not true that [I]the PC winked at the maiden and softened her heart[/I]. Is it true that [i]the PC winked at the maiden[/i]? Who gets to decide that, and according to what principles? Is it true that [I]the PC winked[/I]? Who gets to decide that, and according to what principles? The Prince Valiant rulebook doesn't actually come out and answer these questions - it was written in the late 80s and RPG designers hadn't got as good as contemporary ones about addressing these important issues of play - but it does contain some hints. I don't think you can answer by saying [I]the player decides what the PC does[/I] - because if this was true, then the player could decide that the PC [I]softens the maiden's heart with a wink[/I]. Yet we know that has been taken off the table in virtue of the failed check result. [/QUOTE]
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