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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7630480" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Right, the mechanical means in most other games is that you fail a check. If you insist it must be a save against magic before you're comfortable, that seems like an overly specific exception that really isn't -- it's just an exception you've internalized as okay and so you wave it away when it comes up. Charm Person is actually far more invasive a mechanic into player authorities than most of the games others are talking about where the DM gets to say things about your character.</p><p></p><p>This is what I meant by missing the forest for the tree -- D&D has some very strong DM authorities that often run roughshod over the very limited player authorities. Those that are steeped in this have a really hard time seeing other play structures because they automatically try to orient everything to their understanding of D&D. Here, you reject the idea of the DM having control over your character unless it's one of those D&D ways, where the DM gets a huge amount of control over your character -- then it's fine. I fail to understand why you make this exception but hold out fiercely against much more minor transgressions in other games where the player has much more authority over the game in general than in D&D.</p><p></p><p>I mean, preference is preference, and other play structures aren't better objectively, but this now seems like an odd hill to defend -- that's it's okay for the DM to take away your player authority to be the sole declarer of actions for your PC if magic (which is no different than Bob Says).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7630480, member: 16814"] Right, the mechanical means in most other games is that you fail a check. If you insist it must be a save against magic before you're comfortable, that seems like an overly specific exception that really isn't -- it's just an exception you've internalized as okay and so you wave it away when it comes up. Charm Person is actually far more invasive a mechanic into player authorities than most of the games others are talking about where the DM gets to say things about your character. This is what I meant by missing the forest for the tree -- D&D has some very strong DM authorities that often run roughshod over the very limited player authorities. Those that are steeped in this have a really hard time seeing other play structures because they automatically try to orient everything to their understanding of D&D. Here, you reject the idea of the DM having control over your character unless it's one of those D&D ways, where the DM gets a huge amount of control over your character -- then it's fine. I fail to understand why you make this exception but hold out fiercely against much more minor transgressions in other games where the player has much more authority over the game in general than in D&D. I mean, preference is preference, and other play structures aren't better objectively, but this now seems like an odd hill to defend -- that's it's okay for the DM to take away your player authority to be the sole declarer of actions for your PC if magic (which is no different than Bob Says). [/QUOTE]
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